Principles for Fatherhood (Part 2)

In this Episode we continue our discussion of the next 3 Principles for Fatherhood.

We offer here ideas for how to show up as a father in ways that promote connection.

Full Episode Transcript (note that transcription was done by AI and there may be some errors):

Princinples for Fatherhood (Part 2)

Boulder, Colorado

[00:00:00] Noah: Hi, and welcome to the council fathers podcast. We're bringing a heartful perspective to this wild journey we call fatherhood. I'm Noah Goldstein. 

[00:00:10] Dave: I'm Dave Bonaiuto, 

[00:00:11] Noah: thanks for joining us. And if you do enjoy this, please subscribe and share it with another dad out there who may benefit today. We're following up with part two of principles for father. and we'll start with a little recap of what we went over last week. 

Recap

[00:00:31] Dave: That's right. We have 12 principles that we came up with as sort of a recap for one of our cohorts, one of our. Six months of learning sessions. And the first principle that we talked about was to start with the man in the mirror, which is a reminder for fathers, that this is an opportunity.

Father has its opportunity to look within, and it's not from. Perfectionist self-improvement project perspective, but rather an opportunity to think about and feel into what kind of dad do you want to be and start. 

Too was that it's never about what you 

think that's right. Um, so often we get hooked as, as dads in thinking we know what's happening, uh, and it's rarely about what we actually think is happening.

There's almost always something underneath. And so to start getting into the habit of listening for what's underneath and looking for. What's really going on from my kiddo, 

[00:01:49] Noah: my partner 

[00:01:51] Dave: or your partner 

[00:01:53] Noah: or one's partner or one's co-parent

[00:01:57] Dave: or oneself even. Would you say Noah? 

[00:02:01] Noah: definitely. 

[00:02:03] Dave: But you digress. Number three, principle three was that control is the opposite of connection and that so often our kids are looking for connection with us and we're looking for connection with our partners or with our kids.

And as a way to try to feel better internally, we can. Try to control what's happening. Try to swoop in and use discipline or logic to try to change a situation. When what is really called for is to slow down and connect. 

Principle #4: Better to be Happy than to be Right

[00:02:45] Noah: That was a great summary. And, Um, I think it's always good to review too. Repetition is one of those things that really helps us remember. Um, so today we're going to dive in With principle number four, which is it's better to be happy than to be. 

[00:03:09] Dave: you think that's true? 

[00:03:11] Noah: I think that can be 

[00:03:14] Dave: I think you're right. How's it feel to be right? 

[00:03:17] Noah: feel so 

[00:03:18] Dave: Doesn't it feel good to be right. 

[00:03:19] Noah: Yeah. I mean, Um, so we both were kind of spending some time reflecting and preparing for for the episode.

And, um, I was just thinking about how this show. 

for me. it has been showing up most recently, especially with my, my middle four-year-old son Zephyr, Um, who likes to say it's not fair about everything. And, um, and I, I've a few times caught myself. kind of Tempted to argue and explain to him why it actually is fair and, you know, um, recognizing the folly of that, thanks to this principle has been, has been really helpful.

And, um, you know, there's a way in which this ties into, it's never about what it's really about, but, um, yeah, often we get sort of caught into. I know I'm right and you're wrong. And you need to understand that and that actually doesn't really help anybody or anything. 

[00:04:27] Dave: Yeah. It can be kind of funny when I catch myself arguing with my seven year old or my nine-year-old. I mean, in retrospect, at least it's funny that I'm trying to win an argument using logic with a child. 

Yeah. So often I think it's actually a way to try to maintain control, you know, and I was thinking about how it's one of those things that feels good in the short term, right. To be right. It really does.

I mean, I think somewhere along the line I learned, you know, I think we all do. 

That to win an argument is important to convince the other person that we're right. Will somehow lead to a good outcome for us. 

 And I think it does feel good in the short term, but I think in the longterm, it just reinforced.

And teaches. I mean, it teaches our kids to argue, right? We talked about that last episode, how we're always modeling. And so when I go in to win an argument with my son, I'm showing him how to, how to interact with me. Right? You go until you win and the other person apologizes or concedes, and that seems to grow.

In distance rather than connection, which I think we talked about last time as, as the goal. 

[00:06:10] Noah: Well, yeah, and there's this whole quality, I mean, there is the reason it feels good to to win an argument is because it's a way of taking power in the relationship. 

Um, certainly is not a way of empowering somebody else or, you know, sharing the power if. you will. And so, uh, and uh, granted, you know, there is a power dynamic that's important in a parent child relationship, but, and, um, there's something when, when I find myself arguing, if I, if I actually slow down to listen, not just to the words, but to the feelings, what, what this kids needing or what my partner's needing, 

Then, um, I usually get to better outcomes and I can actually I hear what they're saying underneath their argument. 

[00:07:10] Dave: Totally. Yeah. When we are just trying to win, first of all, I don't think I've honestly ever won a fight. You know, I might feel like, oh yeah, I got the other person to concede or back down or. 

Whatever, 

you know, it might feel like a victory, but it didn't have the intended outcome at all. You know, it didn't teach my children anything.

It didn't bring me closer to my wife. So I don't think I've ever really one of fight, you know, with a, with a capital w and so this can be. Well, such a great reminder when I catch myself trying to convince, trying to argue, trying to win, to say to myself, would I rather win or would I rather be happy? You know what?

I rather feel connected. Would I rather feel close? And like we're making progress together. 

[00:08:21] Noah: I mean, it's interesting that whole win lose thing. It, It, it reminds me of what I've been doing with my kids. When they get when they're fighting about something whose turn, is it? Or how do we, you know, I want to play this.

He wants to play that. And it's like, oh, they're trying to, one of, one of them is trying to, they both want what they want. And, you know, I just sort of sit them down and I say, Hey, Hazel wants this Zephyr wants this. Let's find a solution where, you know, if Hazel gets what she wants and is going to be unhappy.

And Zephyr gets what he wants and Hazel's going to be unhappy, let's find a solution where everyone can actually be happy. And I am blown away. This, you know, seven year old and four year old are just when they, when they're given the opportunity and some facilitation. They come up with these incredible solutions.

And sometimes one of them is like, you know what? I don't actually really care about this, that much, you know, the other kid can have it. And other times, you know, they really just have these creative, creative solutions. Sometimes I work through it with them and I offer some solutions, , and that's ultimately what we're, we're all going for when we're in an argument, 

[00:09:34] Dave: Yeah. The other day we were in the car, all four of us and my wife and I got into an argument in front of the kids and they were watching us, like we were TV sets, you know, they were glued to us. And so I was hyper aware of, you know, how do I, what do I want. Model here. What, what do I want my kids to learn about disagreements and what do I want them to learn about, about relationship?

You know, cause these are, these are little adults in training, you know, they are watching and trying to pick up how, how do I have close relationships with others? And. So it was helpful to know you're being watched. Dave. It was helpful to have that thought and then also be really intentional about listening and trying to understand rage and trying to really soften and catch myself.

You know that little voice in my head saying yeah, but you know, you're right, right. And yeah, of course I was right. I'm always right in my mind, in the middle of an argument and you know, what matters then it matters that. I want both of us, like you're saying, I want, uh, I want both of our needs to meet met, and I want my kids to watch, um, and learn that they can, like you're saying can come to a, a nice resolution where everyone wins.

Principles Number 5: You'll Always Have Your Triggers, Try Not To Let Your Triggers Have You

[00:11:28] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the things that leads to these kinds of arguments? is Getting triggered by somebody else, which leads us to our next principle. 

This is principle 

number five, 

which is you will always have triggers, but try not to let your triggers, have you, what do you make of that Noah? 

[00:11:58] Noah: Well, I think this is something we're going to probably circle back.

I feel like triggers is a big topic. that could Certainly get its own episode or even multiple episodes. And it's something I feel really strongly about because, um, I just think we we do a lot of teaching about in, in the councils. Um, you know, I think first of all, there's this sort of, sort of recognition that we're going to get triggered inevitably.

Right. And so how do we deal with that? Right. And, um, there's a few different Pieces to how I think of how we deal with it. One is, um, slowing down the refraction period, right? That that's 

moment we get triggered to, like, when we act, if we can slow that down, then we'll have more options in terms of all of our, in terms of our actions, right?

The difference between a reflexive knee jerk, literally, as soon as this happened, I just, yell Versus like it happening. And then me feeling like feeling the, oh, and then saying, wait a second, you know, what are my options here? Right. And then the other piece I think has to do with, , speeding up the recovery.

Right? So on the front end, trying to slow things down so that we get triggered and we don't go straight into action mode, but. We want to speed up. If we do go into action mode in that trigger world, of light, whether it's yelling or picking our kid up a little bit more vigorously than we need to be, um, we can catch ourselves as quickly as possible.

Pause, slow down and, , you know, acknowledge what's happening, um, and get . Our feedback under ourselves and, you know, reconnect and repair. 

[00:13:57] Dave: yeah, I like that sort of the, um, rather than trying to control whether or not we're triggered, you're sort of talking about a speed dial.

Like how do we slow things down at times and then speed things up. So almost like a, like a manual transmission in a car we often talk about. And in the council of fathers, we talk about three opportunities around triggers and we, you have sort of before, which is really, you know, how do we resource ourselves?

We'll talk about that and another principle, but how do we, how do we take care of ourselves in a way where we're less likely to get triggered, but also how do we delve into our own triggers? How do we take a look at. There origin, like where are these coming from? So I can do a little work and unpack what's underneath and start to heal the feelings or wounds or, or, um, echoes of the past, you know, where we start to.

Work on what's leading to the triggers. There's the, during which you're talking about, really trying to create some more space in the moment and trying to develop a little bit more observer, like some distance from the thoughts that are arising and the emotions that are arising, in the moment.

And maybe a couple of tricks and techniques to go in into it with how do I sort of disrupt my, as you say, reflexive response. How do I put a little pause in there? We talk about some strategies for that, and then this opportunity afterwards to sort of repair, um, maybe apologize. Reconnect unpack what happened process that, that opportunity afterwards seems to be like pretty powerful in terms of how likely it is to happen again.

And also how big it happens again, next time, time like what we do after effects the next time. 

[00:16:20] Noah: a hundred percent.

And I mean, I really appreciated that. 

[00:16:24] Noah: brought in that piece around unpacking what these triggers are all about, because I mean the one thing, you know, you will always have triggers, right? That's true. But from direct personal experience, you don't have to have as many triggers and things that once triggered you don't have to continue to trigger you There. we live in a time.

when There's a lot of understanding of how the brain works and how, you know, getting triggered works and why these things happen. And, um, you know, whether it's in therapy or coaching, there, there's all sorts of techniques to really dismantle some of them, you know, with the proper, with the work, you know, comes with, like you said, digging into the past understanding where this is coming from.

Why it's. there. And, um, it's, it's pretty powerful. It's, it's amazing to me to, to be in an experience and to know, oh, this would have triggered 

before I had worked through that, you know, and th I would be triggered right now. I'm not triggered. I'm like, you know, I'm feeling feelings, but they're not overriding me.

And 

[00:17:53] Dave: You're saying there's hope. Yeah. 

[00:17:56] Noah: there is. And it doesn't happen overnight and it, you know, but I, but absolutely. 

[00:18:02] Dave: Yeah. 

Yeah. That's, that's beautiful. And you know, it's funny, I there's, there's this way in which intimate relationships like marriage. Kids bring out the triggers that I didn't even know. I had, you know, I mean, before, before I had kids, I thought I was pretty chill guy, you know, but they came equipped with all the buttons.

They know what buttons to press like no one else. I mean, I think there's this way in which triggers are proportionate to how much. We care about someone, you know, which is why marriage can be so triggering, right? The, the, the stakes are high when you've really invested in a relationship. And so, you know, I, I'm not as patient and, uh, cool, calm and collected as I thought I was.

And that's, that's also good news, you know? 

Because as you say, you know, it's these relationships that I care so much about that allow the triggers to become conscious, that that allow them to be something that now I can work through, you know? So, whereas before I thought I was Uber patient, I was just sitting on, you know, a whole lot of irritation and agitation that I was unaware of, that I was keeping locked up and locked down and that's not growth.

That's just avoidance. 

[00:19:53] Noah: Right. 

[00:19:54] Dave: But having relationships that mean so much to me allows that to arise. That's the hard news, but the good news is. Then it allows us to do the work that leads to growth. 

[00:20:11] Noah: Yeah. It's a huge opportunity. It really is. And there's a lot to be grateful for there's in, in, in those opportunities.

Um, there's one other thing I just wanted to name that has to do with, um, How, how resourced we are really, which isn't another principle we're going to get to, but just that when we've gotten enough sleep, when we've eaten three square meals during the day when we Or getting the exercise that we need and whatever other. kind of Outlets in terms of that backlog of stress that we have 

[00:20:48] Dave: the right amount of caffeine and the sorta wake up on the right side of the bed, the sun's gotta be coming in the right angle. You know, I mean, it really is somewhat of a 

miracle, 

[00:20:59] Noah: especially as parents, right. We we, we. don't, we do get strained. Right. And All of the right ways, which is why, we get triggered. I'm 

[00:21:06] Dave: if I, if I stand on my left foot and hold my right now, I'm just kidding.

[00:21:10] Noah: No, but yeah, but I just, you know, sometimes We forget the importance of taking care of ourselves. And, and I think that this is another, don't let your triggers have you. 

Right. How can you, is it possible to work in 20 minutes of exercise twice, three times a week? Like, is it possible to close the Netflix half an hour earlier and get an extra little bit of sleep?

Is it, you know, just what are the little things that you can do to. To help give your nervous system some, what it needs? 

[00:21:48] Dave: yeah. I had a, a mentor once that would talk about a balloon filling with air, you know, and if, and if you think about all the stressors of being a dad, Work stressors, relationship stressors, parenting stressors.

And then you add, you know, the incredible stressors that are happening environmentally in the community pandemic. You know, you can just picture this balloon getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and there's sort of a couple options there. Right? One is it pops. Which nobody wants. And, and two is to find a way to let the air out.

And I think that leads us to the next principle, 

Principle 6: You're only as good as your resources

[00:22:41] Dave: which is. You're only as good as your resources. Right. And I don't know how you feel about that. That's a, that's a big statement. What do you think of that? You're only as good as your resources. 

[00:22:54] Noah: mean, it's maybe an exaggeration for the sake. of getting The point across, but none of us can actually show up. More than our resources allow us to show. up. 

[00:23:07] Dave: Yeah, no, man is an island is the other sort of cliche. Right? And that's the, yeah. These aphorisms are meant to be, not point to the, to the truth, but to point to something helpful, which is, I don't know about you, but I, I have definitely learned in my life to try to handle everything on my own. I mean that's 

[00:23:32] Noah: manhood right there. 

[00:23:34] Dave: That's, that's what I learned. And it's sort of, you know, you get badges for, for doing things on your own, you know, you get patted on the back and I've this whole like asking others for help is, is both foreign and uncomfortable for me. But I sorta think about. Myself now in the middle of, you know, a diagram with, you know, I'm in the middle and there's these domains circles all around me.

I'm not just myself. I am also my relationships. I am also my, my friendships, you know, my social community, my, how I spend my time. With in recreation and leisure, how I take care of my physical self and my body and spirituality. I mean, I'm made up of, of lots of areas that when I tend to them, they serve me and, and they're, they're both integrated and compensatory.

Hmm. Big words, 10 cent words, but just meaning that, meaning that if I am under slept, that's in the physical domain, you know, maybe my, you know, my friendships, my connection with my social group is, is supporting me to show up. 

[00:25:12] Noah: Yeah, and I think, I mean, one of the exercises often. do With people I'm coaching at a certain point, if, you know, if it shows up is to literally write down all the different resources that, that they're aware of, um, in different categories so that you can just like, see it, see it on paper.

Oh yeah. I'm not alone. Or like, oh, these are the ways I take care of myself. Oh, these are the people who I turn to, you know? And. and these are the activities in my life that really fill me up and nourish me and make me feel, rejuvenated or replenished or resourced, you know? And, um, and then you can take that list and you can look at your calendar, you know, you can think back.

When was the last time I spoke to this person, when was the last time? I Did this thing, or, you know, why isn't this in my life as much as I want it to be, or need it to be, or, and start to make some changes. Um, yeah, I think that that is really an important piece. And the other thing, I just going back to that balloon The analogy that you used, um, there's this thing that happens in our nervous systems in our, in our lives. where We experience something stressful, something intense, and we kind of deal with it in the moment, which often in the moment means we, we contain it and then we move on with their day. And We sort of forget about that thing that happened, but it's still alive in our nervous system in our bodies and our beings on our minds.

And. And so it's really important that we do things that, that, allow us to discharge that stuff from our nervous system. 

[00:27:14] Dave: Totally. 

[00:27:15] Noah: And, um, and yeah, and so this is one of those things connecting heart to heart with, uh, with a friend, a parent, a cousin, you know, on the phone, what you know, and, going out for a drink, going out for a run or a walk or a hike and just Moving your body dancing, whatever it is. Right. Everyone has their thing. 

[00:27:37] Dave: Yeah. I mean, just imagine sort of taking away all those bubbles, you know, all those domains and you're just left with work and family. That's a lot of pressure on those two. Right. And then, and then. You know, let's say work is stressful and you come home to this peaceful paradise of calmness and what, no, we were stepping on Legos and kids are screaming and your spouse has also had a day.

Right. And so. If those are the only two areas there, isn't the place to, to discharge. And then we're back in trigger land, right? Everyone's trigger happy at that point, kids are trigger happy. Each of the adults in the house are triggered, trigger happy. Um, 

[00:28:28] Noah: well that makes me think of just two things. One is that we can resource ourselves.

It doesn't have to be in isolation from our family. Right. There are things out there that can be resourcing, not just for us, but for, 

sometimes there's a risk of stress. Like I'd think about skiing right now. because it's winter, right? So going skiing can be really fun and connected. It can also include meltdowns and there's the whole schlepping and getting all the gear and oh, I forgot this with this kid doesn't know he's missing a mitten.

Right. So so it can be stressful, but, but it can also be this really fun nourished. Thing that you do as a family that makes everyone that recharges everyone. And, and so just remembering again, that we don't have to resource ourselves always alone in isolation. Um, and then the other piece is, is something that I think happens a lot for men in the modern era, is that when it comes to emotional intimacy as a resource. We go to our wives.

We go, When it comes to friendship, we go to our wives when it comes to, Hey, let's do something fun this weekend. We go to our wives and, and, um, and it's not fair and it's not good for the relationship, not sustainable. And, uh, Yeah. And I think one of the best things that Rachel and I do for our, our relationship our marriage is, is that we, we re we cultivate actively, uh, our relationship to other resources, other people in our lives that, that serve as a place for emotional intimacy that serve as a place for friendship and connection and play and fun. We also, you know, do that stuff together, Yeah, I think it, it lightens the load. There's not this burden of of this. persons needing me for everything in every way in terms of their human connection and especially with COVID.

And, but I just think that men in general tend to reach out less, tend to. Um, get vulnerable less with other, with friends and you know, maybe. 

[00:31:00] Dave: Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that. I think now is a good time to mention too, that both Noah and I are married to women named Rachel. So we're when we share about Rachel, we're not talking about each other's wives, usually, usually we're, 

[00:31:19] Noah: talking about our own, 

[00:31:20] Dave: So I just wanted to clarify that real quick. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:31:24] Noah: Thank you. 

[00:31:25] Dave: Um, I couldn't agree more that we go from. You know, at least when I was single, I had a lot of guy friends, male friends that I hung out with a lot. You know, I spent a lot of time with them, you know, maybe not necessarily deep emotional connections.

And, but those other categories you were talking about, you know, friendship and connection and. You know, doing fun activities together was pretty spread out. And then, you know, starting a family becomes insular and in a way we become a little bit isolated from the village and we, yeah, we want to be aware how much are we relying on each other for roles that are really for, for meant to be for others too, in particular friends?

[00:32:27] Noah: So we've got, knowing your resources. We've got you are going to get triggered 

[00:32:40] Dave: inevitably, 

[00:32:41] Noah: and we've got, it's better to be happy than to be. Right. ,

What do you think Dave, is there, is there anything else we should, we should say or add, or before we wrap up today,

[00:32:56] Dave: these are, these are just guideposts, right? These are just guidelines and we're hopeful that. Helpful for y'all and you know, things to remember in that moment, you know, like things to bring to mind when I'm feeling stressed or out of sorts, you know, I can think of these things and remember what is it that I'm really after, 

[00:33:24] Noah: Yeah. And I, and like, I think we said this last time, but you know, these are their hallways, their doorways. there, This conversation's about any one of these topics can really, um, be an interesting thing to bring up with the partner, a friend, um, even your kids, it, depending on how old they are, um, could be super relevant.

So hopefully you all enjoyed this. is the second, of a four-part series about principles for fatherhood. If you did, please feel free to rate the show, share it with a friend. Um, shoot us an email, let us know, where connect at counselor, fathers.com. You can also find us on Instagram and, uh, yeah. Keep the love moving.

[00:34:14] Dave: Yeah. Thanks for listening. Y'all we appreciate you. And we just love talking about all things. Fatherhood be well.