Empowered Parenting

In this episode, Noah and Dave dive deep into the concept of Power and Empowerment, especially in the context of Parenting. They explore the impacts of using authority and punishment as tools for control, and emphasize the importance of empowering children to make their own decisions. Drawing on examples from their own experiences, they discuss the role of modeling and dialogue in shaping healthy power dynamics. The episode ends with journal prompts and a powerful exercise to help listeners connect with their sense of empowerment. Tune in to learn how to shift from disempowerment to empowerment, both internally and in your relationships. Listen, reflect, and share this episode with others to spread the message of empowerment.

Please enjoy the transcript:

Empowered Parenting

​

[00:00:00] Noah: Hi, and welcome to the Council of Fathers podcast, where we talk about the

wild

and beautiful adventure of fatherhood. I'm Noah.

[00:00:20] Dave: This is dave

[00:00:22] Noah: And we are here today to talk about something pretty exciting and interesting. We're talking about

power.

[00:00:31] Dave: got the

[00:00:33] Noah: I 

[00:00:36] ZOOM0005_Tr2: I can't do it, Captain. I don't have the power.

Wow,

[00:00:39] Noah: Wow. I haven't heard that one in a really long time.

That was good.

[00:00:42] ZOOM0005_Tr2: welcome.

[00:00:43] Noah: So let's see. I wanted to name just up front that A lot of times we talk about stuff and it's good and hopefully it's inspiring and uplifting. But today we actually want to include some kind of tangible takeaways. So a few exercises that people can do and you know, journal prompts, stuff like that.

Those will also be in the show notes. But we might wait, make you wait till the end of the episode to actually get them And also just, , we're here trying to do something good for the world, trying to help, , inform, share, spread good stuff about being a dad. And if you do enjoy it, then help us spread that and share it with a friend and let us know.

Let us know that it was helpful and feel free to ask questions. Give us ideas about what you want to hear more of. You can just email us at connect at council of fathers. com. We want this to be a collaborative endeavor. And yeah, it's always nice to know when When people are feeling it, we just recently got a message after our last episode that it was really impactful for somebody.

And so that was really meaningful for us and helps us get back out here and, and, you know, make more episodes more quickly. So.

[00:02:03] ZOOM0005_Tr2: It's so cool to hear from folks that are listening from our millions of listeners out there

[00:02:10] Noah: there. 

[00:02:11] ZOOM0005_Tr2: feedback.

It keeps us going. I mean, we kind of enjoy talking to each other, hanging out talking about things that we are passionate about anyway, but it was. You know, shout out to Jeff out there. Thank you for, thank you for connecting with us and telling us how the podcast landed for you.

[00:02:37] Noah: sweet in, jump in. Yeah

[00:02:41] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Well, I'd love to start with your thoughts, Noah. is this top, this topic of power, empowerment, disempowerment, Why, why are we talking about this? , why is it so important?

[00:02:59] Noah: so a big question. But . 

Important question, I think talking about power is important because it, it impacts so much in our world and in our lives.

And

it's kind of invisible

unless you've

trained yourself to see it and know it and understand it. It's sort of subtle. It's not like always obvious what's happening , it can cause pain and harm. accidentally it can cause pain and harm on purpose. It can also be incredibly uplifting and support beautiful, vital, important change and healing.

And so understanding power, what it means to have power, how one is wielding that power Understanding how we show up in the world when we feel empowered versus when we feel disempowered. Understanding that some people, when they feel disempowered, you know, move towards aggression and attempts to control to gain power while other people, when they feel disempowered, sort of retreat and go inward and, and kind of curl in.

And so, like. So then we can also start to understand different behaviors and different lights and, and have a better sense of what's going on for ourselves and for the people we love around us. 

I think,

, it's a vital, vital element in parenting. There's a inherent power differential between parents and children.

An important one, ? We don't want our children running the show though. Sometimes like, Children learn how to wield and power and manipulate their parents through

through

emotions through all sorts of different ways and so They are And that's you know in a way we want our kids to be powerful we want our kids to know their power and to see how they can affect change and find their way to getting what they want in the world as long as they're not coming causing harm in the process and as long as they're not Breaking boundaries that are important for whatever reason

It's especially relevant, I think, for, , toddlers who are, for the first time, transitioning out of this, , blobby, receptive, passive, , what's this world that I'm in, and into a, ooh, there's a stick, and I can whack things with that stick, or I want that toy, and I'm just going to grab it, right?

Like, they're learning how, , how they have power in the world, and they're also struggling when, you know, They're not getting what they want with their power. And so there's a really beautiful opportunity there in that stage of life. And then I think, , of course, all throughout childhood, it's a theme, but it really shows up again in those tweenager and then teenager years where there's a, an assertion for independence and for, yeah, owning, owning more power and gaining more power.

And then of course it's also. relevant to, to partnerships, to our relationships with, with our partners and who has power in which arenas and how do, how do we relate? Are we in a power dynamic? What power dynamics are we in? How aware of them are we, you know, are we subconsciously manipulating each other?

Are we consciously manipulating each other? Hopefully not. And so, Yeah.

[00:06:40] ZOOM0005_Tr2: so important it plays out in so many ways and I hear you using several terms that I'd love to unpack a little bit. So you just described this intangible energy that you've called power and named that it is difficult to to describe. put a finger on, but we, it's important to try to identify where power is in relationships and how it's used in relationships with the intention of using it, using power.

Maybe we'll, we'll this is a question right now, but. But it sounds like you're saying that there are maybe more ethical or useful or healthier ways to use power than others, and that part of your interest in this topic is the appropriate use, the helpful use, the productive use of power Thank you.

And then you've also used this term empowerment, which is really has the word power in it, and yet has a slightly different nature and has its own definition. So I wonder if you could just sort of talk about these terms a little bit. Power, empowerment, maybe disempowerment. How are you?

[00:08:14] Noah: Yeah. Thank you. That's a important, another important question. So I think the sort of simplest way to think about power is, Our ability to affect change, our ability to get what we want, our ability to influence. One could also use the word control, but I think influence is a better one, a situation and its outcomes. And so you can think of a lot of different 

[00:08:46] ZOOM0005_Tr2: that 

[00:08:47] Noah: shows up everywhere a million times a day, right? If you have the money you need to buy the food you have, then like money is a way of asserting power in the world. You're getting what you want with it, 

? And so that's why some people spend a lot of time and energy, you know, trying to amass wealth, because that's, that's a, a leverage point of, of power in our, in our world, in our society, in our culture.

If you're two siblings. And you're both wanting to play with the same toy, 

? Then, then there's going to be a power struggle, right? 

, you each want the same thing, and so then, you know, and there's lots of ways that that can happen and go. And, and so, so then there's a power struggle in there, ?

I mean, I can go on and on with examples, but essentially it's like, you We all have desires. We all want things. We also have basic needs , and so do we have the power to Get our needs met and what do we do when we're not able to get our needs met And say our first choice of that happening and how do we you know, Feel about that.

[00:09:51] ZOOM0005_Tr2: , it's almost like what you're saying is asserting power or influence is an attempt to get one's needs met.

[00:10:04] Noah: That's,

that's, yeah. Well said.

[00:10:06] ZOOM0005_Tr2: And then the question that we're playing with today is, what is, If we're wanting to be intentional about relationship and be conscious and conscientious about the use of power, then what's the healthiest way to get our needs met in this crazy dynamic called family

[00:10:29] Noah: right?

[00:10:30] ZOOM0005_Tr2: that ripples out into this crazier dynamic called culture?

How do

we humans go around trying to meet our own needs and maybe help others get their needs met? And what happens when those two things conflict? My needs and your needs conflict. What do we do? 

[00:10:52] Noah: Right. Um, And, and often we, what we think are conflicting needs, there's, there's layers to that that we can get to.

And I don't know if we'll get all the way there today in terms of unpacking that, but that could be a good follow up episode. But I also want to just name and acknowledge before I jump into empowerment and being empowered and disempowerment and being disempowered that there are certain social roles cultural roles that involve power, ?

And And that's important to just be aware of to watch and see and feel and the principle of a school, for instance, has a certain amount of power over what happens and is, , seen in a certain way and treated a certain way based upon that role. They have potentially the power to do that.

Power to fire teachers or to hire teach, right? And so there's all of these ways in which the roles we might be playing in a job can impact and influence how much power we have. Being a doctor of medicine, right? People defer some of their personal power often, , to entrust me with advice around what they might do that's going to be good for them.

Right. And so that's power that I have to be really intentional about and careful about and, and ethical and kind and loving, and, you know, Yeah, and we've seen and know examples where that gets manipulated and misused and we see and know of examples where, , it's not. And so

so I

think, so there is also in these dynamics ways in which, , we sort of Subconsciously give people power and also ways in which we maybe unc, consciously and intentionally when we elect a mayor, I'll use that as an example.

We're, we're giving, we're choosing to give that person power. That's a, other times we might like, sort of not even realize it, but were, , deferring . The choice about what we're going to eat for dinner to our spouse or to a, a visitor from out of town. And so in a way it's like, oh, I really wanted Chinese food, but my partner wants tacos.

, so there's a way in which if it's subconscious, it's sort of kind of giving my power away. Whereas if it's conscious, it's, it's an empowered choice. And so that, that's, I can, it seems like you have a question, but I, I want to get into the empowerment and disempowerment, so I want to see if you have a question first.

[00:13:23] ZOOM0005_Tr2: No, I was just thinking about Chinese food and just, I went off and I can kind of taste it. We had beef and broccoli last night for dinner and, and was also thinking.

Just, , that difference between we can be autonomously motivated and defer to someone else. We can choose to put our well being in someone else's hands and that is an empowered choice. I like how you were describing that difference between I go to my doctor and I'm trusting my physician to , have my, needs in, in mind.

And there's a lot of power

that

he holds.

[00:14:14] Noah: hmm.

[00:14:15] ZOOM0005_Tr2: And. And yet, I'm empowered in my choice to defer to him, in this case. Well,

[00:14:24] Noah: but you're, but, but, but sometimes because of the inherent dynamics in that relationship, people are not actually empowered in their choice and something doesn't feel right. The doctors recommending a medication and they don't understand.

what that medication does, or why they should be taking it, or what other options are out there. And because of all sorts of internalized beliefs and thoughts and power dynamics, they don't feel empowered to ask and to question and to

, engage in a, in an empowered kind of way in that relationship.

And so , so I think that it's also the doctor's responsibility , To, to do what they can to empower their patient and give them the information and give them choice and help them understand all of the pros and cons and all of the differences. And they might feel, the doctor might feel disempowered by the medical system they're a part of because they might feel like, well, I'm not being given all of the time that I need to be able to fully empower my, the, the, the people that I work with.

And so.

[00:15:38] ZOOM0005_Tr2: I need to be able to fully my, the, the people that I work so, yeah. And to try to share power, to share decision making, to share the authority in the room with the person who has been given less power by society. And just to name that in a family system, the parents have the most power in the room. And oftentimes the father is perceived, whether accurately or not, as the person with the most power in the room. I, I am the largest person in my family. I have the strongest voice in my family. I have the lowest voice. And I have been. given

power

by society more so disproportionately than anyone else in my family. So I have a responsibility as a father to be aware of my use of power and to actively try to encourage the, shared use of power? I don't know, I'm struggling with that, but something like

that 

[00:17:18] Noah: no, and I think I think you put that, you put that, you made that very, said that very clearly. And I think that one thing you're pointing at is sort of the difference between power over and power with. 

[00:17:31] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Yeah.

[00:17:32] Noah: And there is an inherent. possibility for power over as, as a parent. And there are a lot of potential benefits to engaging in those relationships in terms of power with.

Of course, in the end of the day, right, there, there, you, you know, the parent has the power to decide certain things. And 

and yet the more sense of agency and empowerment that we can give our children, as long as they understand the responsibilities that come along with that the better, I think. And again, when I say that, I'm, I'm in.

including a age appropriate, developmentally appropriate level, right? So I think that's, you know, what we want to be doing is giving our two year old as much freedom as we can that's safe for them within a certain container. But that doesn't mean all of the freedom, right, in the world. We also want them to have clear boundaries and understand consequences and understand.

And then, and, but as that two year old becomes a five year old and a six year old and a seven year old, all of a sudden we want them to make more decisions for themselves. And, you know, and like maybe my three and a half year old right now, she can decide if she's going to wear this sweater or this sweater when it's 50 degrees outside, but she doesn't get to decide that she's not wearing a sweater.

Right. And so there's an example, a tangible example of like, I'm empowering her to make a choice and have a decision and have agency around what she's wearing while maintaining very clear boundaries that certain things need to be worn under these conditions. And that's my responsibility. You know?

[00:19:33] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Yeah, let me, if you don't mind, let me say that same 

[00:19:40] Noah: Sure. 

[00:19:42] ZOOM0005_Tr2: with slightly different terms, if that's okay.

[00:19:45] Noah: please.

[00:19:46] ZOOM0005_Tr2: , the clear way that we as parents. wield power or use our authority, the clearest way is through rewards and consequences. Contingencies. If you behave a certain way, you will be rewarded in some way, whether it's a tangible reward or it's just our approval.

If you act in a way that is not appropriate. to our family culture and rules, then , you will receive a consequence that could be tangible or it could be disapproval or a look or a scorn. So that's extrinsic modes of trying to influence someone. rewards, consequences, and it is also a use of power over.

That type of motivation, by the way, is the weakest type of motivation and potentially has the most negative side effects. What we tend to see are kids trying to please us. Or being scared of us. Or learning to do things like manipulate or lie or avoid or tattle or all of these behaviors often come from power over.

They're a result of power over. So part of what I hear in your story about the sweater is actually, rather than power over, it's sort of like a negotiation. You have needs, child. I have needs, child. Right? You, child, have the need to choose what you wear and feel self determined and feel autonomous and feel powerful.

And I, as the parent, have a need to protect you from the elements and keep you safe and keep you healthy. How can we negotiate this? We both have power. We both have needs. How can we come to a mutual agreement that isn't one person dominating the other or using authority over the other or influencing the other with rewards and consequences, but negotiating?

You know, what, what should we do here? I really, I'm worried about you being out in the cold and I hear you don't want to put that sweater on. What should we do? What ideas do you have about how we can work with? Right. This is how adults manage conflict in, in, in ideal situations, right? Noah, you want to meet here today.

I want to meet somewhere else. What, what should we do? How do we negotiate that? Right. We have an equitable use of power. And so with our kids, if we don't want to teach them ways to to reject us in an effort to resist power , how can we work with, how can we partner?

[00:23:14] Noah: Yeah, I mean, and I, and I think what, what that evokes for me is just the note noting that I mentioned the sort of the term disempowerment and empowerment.

And ironically, I think the more empowered we feel, the more clear we are that we're wielding the power in the relationship and in the dynamic, the easier it is to use healthier forms Of negotiation. In other words, it's when we're triggered, usually when we're feeling overwhelmed and out of control that we then tend to come down and assert like you're wearing this.

No, no, I don't want to hear anything about it. Now get in the car. Right? Like we're, we're, we're saying, you know, that's when we bark. That's when we sort of, it's like, I'm overwhelmed. I know I have the ultimate power and say in this, and I'm just going to just slam that down and control the situation. I usually feel the need to control the situation when I feel out of control, i.

e. disempowered.

[00:24:28] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Yep

[00:24:29] Noah: And so and so that's a useful. thing to pay attention to notice when do we kneel down and connect and try to hear and understand what's going on for our kid and help them come and help come to a solution and when are we just like Just do it now, you know and not in a Self shaming or you know guilt guilt tripping kind of way recognizing that we're all humans and we're all coming into our adulthood and parenthood with like, with baggage and the way that we were raised, which, , back there weren't these tools, there wasn't this awareness.

And so I want to just kind of think about or share about, or, you know, talk about what helps us feel empowered and what causes us to feel disempowered. 

[00:25:23] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Just to reiterate what you just said, that when we feel disempowered as parents is when we scramble to find our power and often overreach and overexert in an effort to feel empowered. We, we reach for empowerment and shoot over it and maybe become authoritarian or dominating, but that's not what we're trying to do.

So how do we How do we find our Center how do we find our source of healthy empowerment when we're feeling out of control? 

[00:26:16] Noah: I think, I think the, you know, the answer varies , for everyone. I think noticing that we feel out of control is, can be really helpful. So one of the things that I'm always keen on is like slow down because usually there is some sense of urgency coming from somewhere that's adding unnecessary pressure to the system.

[00:26:44] ZOOM0005_Tr2: To school on

[00:26:44] Noah: yeah, that's usually what it is or got to get home or got to get to this class or

[00:26:49] ZOOM0005_Tr2: a meeting at 9.

[00:26:51] Noah: And and, and so that, that pressure is, is unrooted. And, and it's also like, let's be real. This is a power dynamic between us and the school, the school and the school system has all this power and all of these consequences that come to come to be, if we don't get there on time, they are enforcing , and so. How do we stay empowered in that relationship and recognize, like, that we still do have agency and power there, despite the state and the district and the schools attempts to disempower us and to, and, and we can understand the value of being on time. Don't get me wrong. But , so we're having a sense of urgency and that can be unsettling.

And if we could just slow down for a moment, we can notice first noticing, well, what am I feeling? And what is my child actually feeling? What's actually going on for them? So that's, that's usually the, the first thing is if we can pass. And then if we can regulate like, okay, well, I'm feeling out of sorts.

Let me just go splash some water in my face. Let me just go, , do a couple. jumping jacks in my room or take a few deep breaths, whatever, whatever's that thing that's going to just help you kind of settle down a little bit. And you can model that for your kid. You can say, daddy needs a few minutes, and then, and then it's maybe just a matter of remembering like, wait a second, I'm the dad here.

I'm arguing with a, a 2-year-old, a 3-year-old, a 7-year-old, a nine, a 13-year-old. Like what is going on here? , just remembering like

[00:28:28] ZOOM0005_Tr2: it's better to be connected than to be right.

[00:28:32] Noah: Yeah. And it's better to be connected than to control , your child. 'cause you can actually usually find your way to what you're trying to get to in a connected way.

[00:28:45] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Yeah. Yeah. That's the win win.

When we're connected, we are finding a solut a collaborative solution that's a win win. That's our attempt, that's our intention, and it seems to be the most efficient way to a shared outcome, a mutually beneficial outcome.

[00:29:07] Noah: outcome, And another little like sort of visualization I'll sometimes do is find kind of my center or something and I'll do like a little gravitational vacuum cleaner pulling all my power back into my body.

Cause what actually happens on an energetic level is, , the, the kids or the partner , are literally, it's literally a grab a power grab. , that's a term we use. And they're, they're trying, , they're not consciously, but they are like pulling us off balance to manipulate us to get what they want.

Again,

it's not usually conscious. They're just trying to get what they want and in getting what they want, they start to get emotionally dysregulated, which disregulates us.

[00:29:51] ZOOM0005_Tr2: It's funny though, right? How we call it manipulation when it's our kids, but when it's us, we call it parenting. You know, it's, it's, it's a power grab either way and we do it in this, you know, socially acceptable way, but sometimes I just envy my kids ability to just, , say it like it is and.

Be bold and , we're both trying, we're both vying over power and I'm trying to do it in a covert way and sometimes they just do it overtly and I really appreciate that. Right now, talking to you, not in the moment, I don't appreciate it. But both, both people in the dynamic are trying to get their needs met.

Yeah, so I love those strategies

[00:30:44] Noah: of

[00:30:46] ZOOM0005_Tr2: to slow things down, regulate the nervous system, remember what's important to you as to your values as a parent, as a father, and feel more in control. And in this sort of chaos,

[00:31:06] Noah: Right. Um, or feel empowered in the chaos, right? Recognize like, oh fuck, this is chaotic. And ,I can be okay in the chaos. And, and again, I want to acknowledge that not everyone's nervous system. Under the current circumstances can be okay in the chaos, there's an element of years and years of therapy and acupuncture and practices that I've done that that makes it even a Possibility for me to be okay amidst the chaos whereas Sometimes that's not even accessible, right?

And so I want to acknowledge that because I don't want to create a story for other people that they should be, quote unquote, should be able to calm themselves down in the moment or should be, I mean, we want to get there and if we can't, we need to seek help to find ways to get there. But if, if we have, you know, trauma history, a trauma burden that we're carrying, right, then we might never be able to. feel empowered under certain circumstances of, of power, turmoil. 

[00:32:15] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Yeah, And

if you have less power in society,, it's easy for me to, to talk about feeling empowered because I've been handed , a pretty nice hand. And. And so my access to power is facilitated by the, by 

[00:32:37] Noah: right, 

[00:32:39] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Either way, what you're saying is this is aspirational for all of us.

We're all just trying to take a step in the direction of our values, not trying to be perfect by any means, not trying to be right, not trying to get it right. We're just trying to live. In more and more alignment with our own values and

[00:33:03] Noah: that is empowering. notice that we're stuck in a pattern.

[00:33:12] ZOOM0005_Tr2: See what I did there?

[00:33:12] Noah: Yeah. And to then start to work towards mastery, start to work towards progress, to change something that's going on.

And to seeing how, Oh, when I do this differently, this happens differently. Then we start to see, Oh, I have power here. I am not a, a victim to these circumstances. I am not a you know, like I don't have to. You know, navigate this tantrum situation in this way. And when I, you know, I've been stuck in that.

And like, now when I sort of choose to try something different. Ooh, the choice. Oh, now I have choice. Choice is power, right? And And going back to like when we're dysregulated and in our lizard brain, we don't have choice anymore We're working. We're all it's the autonomic nervous system.

It's fight or flight and so, So that's why you know quote unquote doing the work, being in therapy working through trauma, Being in groups that where you're supported and seen and witnessed and able to discharge like

, stuff in your nervous system, all of those things are empowering, right?

They're all in the service of, you know, it's funny because I think, I mean, I don't, yeah, a lot of people are apprehensive potentially about going to therapy or going to, because this means they quote unquote need help, which is, which is a sign of maybe being less powerful, whenever we ask for help, we're indicating like, I can't do it on my own.

Oh, I don't have the power, ? Whereas the power is in, is, is actually in getting the help that we need to, to gain even more power, if that makes sense.

[00:35:00] ZOOM0005_Tr2: if that makes sense. make a choice to do something active, ?

To, to turn the feeling of disempowerment into action. Proactive movement is empowering. 

[00:35:21] Noah: hopefully 

[00:35:24] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Yeah. for sure. Beautiful. 

[00:35:28] Noah: Yeah.

So Dave sort of started out there. I was going to mention just that, , you mentioned Purpose and meaning and values, ? All of those are ways of Feeling ourselves empowered, , and when we have a sense of meaning and purpose in our lives, that's that's an empowering, force and if people want to go back and listen to our last episode about Spirit and connection to spirit.

I find that to be another incredibly empowering. I'm not doing this alone Not only am I doing not doing this alone, but i'm being supported by other forces , that care for me, that want me to succeed, , and whether those forces are relationships with human beings or relationships with spirit, , , that there's a desire for me to, to succeed, to be okay, to do well here.

. So, So we've been talking about power and empowerment and we've used some parenting examples, but , how, how does this all really relate to parenting?

[00:36:28] ZOOM0005_Tr2: I think the question we're trying to answer is, is how do we help our kids learn and grow

when what we've often been taught is to use authority or use power? to shape our kids behaviors. So what's the alternative, ? And we talked a little bit about negotiation. You and I have talked about this before that , we've both experienced our kids doing what we've asked them to do because they want to please us or because they want to.

Get dessert or because they don't want us to be disappointed. And then we've also experienced when our kids do something because they want to do it. It feels good to help out. It feels good to see the looks. the secret looks on your parents face, not the purpose, not, not the you know, the demonstration of approval, but that gleam in dad's eye when I pick something up without being asked.

That is tremendous power. When our kids learn that, Doing certain things, acting in a certain way in the world feels good and it's powerful to be able to do the dishes, clear the table, wipe the table down. It's, wow, check out what I can do. You know, the self reinforcing aspect of Rafi making a meal for his family That

is not something I can create through rewarding him for his actions.

It happens because it is self determined. It is endorsed by him. And I think that's ultimately what we're trying to sort out. How do we help our kids get behind endorse? The actions and thoughts and feelings that serve them most, that help them grow,? , the best teachers in the world have engaged students who are lit up by learning. They're not doing their homework because they're scared to turn it in. They're doing their homework because they, there's magic in being able to do math. Right? So that's what we're, as parents, we're trying to figure, I'm trying to figure that out. I, I, you know, to, to come back to this idea that,, you and I don't have this figured out.

, I talked to Rach this morning about, you know, in preparation for this episode, how much I rely on authority and how much I see the negative

impact that that has. And I'm, I'm trying, trying to curb that cause , it's not serving anyone. I remember, I remember so distinctly as a kid this one example came to mind when I was talking to Rach that my mom, required that I wore a helmet when I rode my bike, which I found incredibly oppressive, you know?

[00:40:01] Noah: Yeah.

[00:40:02] ZOOM0005_Tr2: And what I learned was to put my helmet on, ride out the door until I was out of sight.

Sorry, mom. As soon as I was out of sight, I took the helmet off and I put it in a bush near my house. And I rode for the rest of the day free. Now I could have gotten hit by a car and I could have gotten really hurt because,

[00:40:33] Noah: didn't.

[00:40:34] ZOOM0005_Tr2: thank you, because I didn't, I did not want to wear a helmet.

I didn't see the value myself as a kid. I didn't endorse that decision. I simply learned to Avoid the consequence of not doing something. And, I've, you know, I've been working in the criminal justice system for the good part of, I don't know, over 15 years at this point. Almost 20, I think. And I just watch this play out over and over in the criminal justice system where what folks on supervision or Folks that are incarcerated.

What I see them learn is how to avoid power.

[00:41:25] Noah: How to game the system.

[00:41:28] ZOOM0005_Tr2: how to not get caught. And , to learn more sophisticated ways of committing crimes. And this is the, this is the negative consequence of punishment is that, you know, Skinner found ways, B. F. Skinner found ways of controlling pigeons using punishment, but they were in a box and they didn't have much choice and they had bird brains and still he found that He could control them better with birdseed than with shocks, you

[00:42:12] Noah: know

[00:42:14] ZOOM0005_Tr2: so it was limited and it had a negative impact on, on the, on the birds.

Humans aren't in a box, you know, and we have much larger brains and we have a lot more choice. And so punishment is very, very.

Ineffective

and has tremendous negative iatrogenic outcomes. It has unintended negative consequences. And what that looks like in kids is manipulation, lying, sneaking, vying for power with their siblings, tattling, cheating, ?

All these things are responses to trying to be controlled.

[00:43:05] Noah: Well, I mean, you know, the, the rebel without a cause kind of comes into mind. I mean, that's what rebelling is, ? There's bill Plotkin talks about the, the rebel and the conformist, ? And these are two things that, neither of which we really want. . And ' , the rebel is just like. feels like they have no power and they're just trying to get it and they're going to do, they're going to go against anything and everything just to feel their sense of power. And the conformist is like, I don't have any power, so I'm just going to go along with what's being, I'm being told to do or asked to do or right.

And there's an element of sheepishness in that and an element of well, conformity of like, not, not, not knowing. Who you are and what you want and one can lose themself in, doing what's being, one's being told. 'cause they don't wanna deal with the consequences and, and so, you know,

[00:44:00] ZOOM0005_Tr2: and, and repress a whole

[00:44:03] Noah: Oh yeah.

[00:44:04] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Right, which creates this shadow that eventually has to come out, right? So, kids that learn to please their teachers, please their parents and get good grades and get, you know, accolades and always do it right. I worry about that too. I worry about the shadow that that level of repression and suppression creates over over time it's it's Scary and it's played out on a societal level.

We see it all the time

[00:44:46] Noah: , and neither of those places are places of 

[00:44:48] ZOOM0005_Tr2: empowerment, 

[00:44:49] Noah: ? The rebel feels like they have to rebel. , they're going against whatever it is, , , , they might not even care about the thing, but just because they're being told to do something, they're going to do the opposite.

So they're stuck in a certain way., and I, and the last piece, you know, I just want to kind of include in that is this is

it's what are we modeling? And if we're, if we're showing our children, , okay, when you have power, this is how to wield it. Then when they have power one day, that is how they are going to wield it.

And if they learn that having power means controlling other people, They're going to control it. , not because they're mean or vindictive or evil or hard hearted, but because they don't, they've never seen anything else. Right. And most of us haven't seen a ton of other examples of wielding power collaborative of, you know, we have to be, we have to take agency and seek out intentionally people, environments where power is being played with and explored and worked with in, in different kinds of ways.

And we have to listen to conversations like this and ask questions and, and engage, with ourselves and, and with our you know, families and friends in different ways. 

[00:46:18] ZOOM0005_Tr2: and, with our you know, families and friends in different ways.

we

are a multiplicity, , intra psychically, we, we have, we're a multiplicity of selves, and, and there's this way in which we want to share power or use power, responsibly with ourselves too.

So this is just the reminder that probably comes in every podcast episode. You know, we said Noah and I are far from perfect, perfection is not the goal, and treating yourself with harsh consequences neither. The way to grow, meaning it's not an effective way to grow and it has , unintended negative consequences, right?

So the way we treat ourselves when we catch ourselves misusing power, the way we respond to that, what we do after that. is super important. I can't, I'm, , having a conversation with my wife this morning about how I want to change the way I use power in my household. Well, that's not going to come from me shaming myself or being harsh on myself.

It's going to come from noticing and just like meditation, coming back to my intention, coming back to these strategies that you've talked about, over and over again. 

[00:48:02] Noah: Well, and I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, just, I mean, it opens, I'm not going to go all the way down into it, but it, you know, this, this idea that we're a multiplicity shows up in like IFS, internal family systems, you know, where we're doing work with these different parts of ourselves. And , one of the most beautiful things I've discovered in, in doing this type of work, and no bad parts by

[00:48:27] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Dick Schwartz,

[00:48:28] Noah: Schwartz is a good place to start with that.

Is that, , I have these parts of myself that are vying for power internally. , and the part of me that, , wants to exercise is arguing with the part of me that wants to, like, just relax and kick it. Or the part of me that, , whatever, it, and that, Actually, the healing that happens internally is when they're in dialogue, when they all of a sudden are not fighting and, and trying to control each other, but when they find a collaborative solution together, when these two parts inside of me find a collaborative solution to to an internal conflict, and the more I do that, the more it feels

possible

for me and easy for me and Available for me to then I'm in conflict with my wife or my child or my friend

[00:49:25] ZOOM0005_Tr2: you're practicing. 

[00:49:26] Noah: I and I and I've seen like so many time and time again when I can understand the other person's Positive intent what they're wanting what they're needing what's going on for them and when they can understand mine And we can realize, Oh, we're actually on the same page in some way, you know, coming to some solution is, is so much easier.

[00:49:56] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. And I want to just offer one more tool based on what you just said.

[00:50:03] Noah: Great. We're here to offer tools.

[00:50:05] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Yeah. We've mentioned this before a bunch of times, but nonviolent communication is a wonderful interpersonal tool That provides some structure for dialogue We're talking about two people that Sometimes have competing needs so and you're saying One thing we want to do is we want to understand the other person's Perspectives, needs, and we want to understand our own needs.

And one way to practice that interpersonally, IFS is a beautiful , strategy, intrapersonally, and then interpersonally nonviolent communication gives us a way to practice.

[00:51:00] Noah: When I first started using it, it became this like, Oh, I'm, I'm talking the right way and you're talking the wrong way and you're not communicating, you know, in a nonviolent way. And, and so there was this this power and I, I was using it, you know, to To have power over,

[00:51:18] ZOOM0005_Tr2: Yeah, the intention is so important.

[00:51:21] Noah: well, the, yeah,

[00:51:22] ZOOM0005_Tr2: The spirit in which we enter dialogue needs to be, that we are intending to partner, we're intending to accept the other, we're intending to be compassionate, and we're intending to empower.

, when we enter into dialogue with, with that intention, then the skills and tools, the technical devices, serve that intention.

[00:51:56] Noah: devices that intention.

The misuse of 

[00:52:04] ZOOM0005_Tr2: , in my view,

The misuse of power in our culture is rampant and the way we shift that is in our own psyches,

like you're suggesting, through IFS, through our own relationships, like I'm suggesting, through dialogue. Through the modeling that you talked about with our kids.

I

think in addition to just wanting our kids to succeed and be healthy human beings.

I really want to see the shift in the way power is used and If we can do that with our kids, then maybe we have a shot of seeing a world one day where power is not abused, but shared and invested in the good of humanity.

[00:53:04] Noah: Yeah, I think when you think of like , is someone, a good leader, , who's being empowered by those around them. only to then empower those who are empowering him. , or her, someone who's distributing the power, back to the collective or, and finding ways for power to be flowing

and

moving and being utilized in, in effective, peaceful, loving, caring, compassionate kind of ways.

So, I want to leave our listeners with a few journal prompts. And so you can sit down and think about a time that you felt disempowered and you can think about and feel into what that felt like and what was happening in that situation. You can think of a time when you felt empowered and powerful and what, what did that feel like and what was happening in that situation. And then you can also think of a time you shifted from feeling disempowered to feeling empowered and reflect on how that happened, what you did, what was done, what, you know, what, just what happened. And last, , how do you want to be as a dad in relation to power? What do you want to teach your children or child about power?

Implicitly through modeling practices that you engage with in your family, and explicitly through age appropriate, um,

Conversations. And then I'll leave you guys with a little exercise, which is to find what What being empowered feels like in your body? Where do you feel it? In your chest? In your heart?

In your arms? In your belly? In your head? In your legs? What does it feel like? Is it bright? Is it heavy? Is it dense? Is there somewhere where it's emanating from? And find that feeling and, and practice it and remember it and learn it and come back to it two, three, four times a day. Just take a minute. Take a deep breath and just like, feel it.

And then notice, does doing that before I pick up my kids from school or before I leave my room in the morning to start the whole breakfast, lunch, dinner, , just getting to school on time routine. Does that change anything about that? Does it change anything when I get home from work and, , kind of enter into the chaos of dinner or whatnot?

Just noticing, just touching into my sense of empowerment. How does that impact my day and my family and my partnership? Anything

you want to add?

[00:55:57] ZOOM0005_Tr2: add? Just Thanks for that gift that those prompts and. I accept your challenge,

[00:56:06] Noah: Beautiful. So we hope you all have a really beautiful day. If this was meaningful, if this was valuable, if this was useful, please share it with somebody.

Please offer us feedback and suggestions around what you want to hear more about.

[00:56:22] ZOOM0005_Tr2: I dare you to share this with three people.

[00:56:25] Noah: Ooh, I, I'll do it. I'll share it with three people.

[00:56:30] ZOOM0005_Tr2: All right,

[00:56:30] Noah: Not really you.

[00:56:32] ZOOM0005_Tr2: I will.

[00:56:32] Noah: Okay, have a beautiful day and keep on keeping on