Making Fatherhood Meaningful

In this episode we dive into what makes parenting meaningful. We explore how fatherhood can be more than just fulfilling day-to-day responsibilities and what it means to truly embrace the role. We discuss the challenges fathers face, the importance of being present, and how fathers can grow through the experience. It’s a deep conversation that encourages fathers to reflect on their journey, prioritize meaningful connections with their children, and find purpose in every step of the way.

Transcript:

Making Fatherhood Meaningful

I Am welcome to the Council of fathers podcast where we explore the wild and crazy adventure We call fatherhood. I'm Noah. Hey, I'm Dave and we're here to Be your hosts and Have a little conversation., today I'm really excited. We're going to dive into a topic. is, is exciting and important. , it started, let's see, uh, I read this article in the Atlantic about declining fertility rates in America that, you know, there's, there's less than two children.

Her, her family, right? And so the population of the U S would therefore be declining and they're trying to understand why this is. And usually they talk about economic causes. So, um, Oh, childcare is too expensive. It's too expensive to raise kids, you know, all these things, , And they were looking at countries where those types of economic costs are, are taken care of, right?

In, in Europe, you've got like places like Denmark and Norway and all of these progressive countries that have, you know, childcare and parental leave and, and all this stuff. And they found that they're also having declining fertility rates. And through the research, they came to sort of really see that. A big piece is,, is about meaning and purpose that, that people both in their own lives are not feeling like their lives are meaningful.

Um, and so it's sort of like, well, why would I bring another human being into this world? , and, or their, , There's the sense that like, there's, there's nothing meaningful about having kids, right? Like, I want to travel. I want to be free and be able to do whatever I want, whenever I want. And, and kids are really just a burden.

They really just encumber us and, take away our freedom and make us crazy. And, you know, I've seen my friends who have already had kids. Their life is Hard, harder than mine. I don't want to have a harder life, right? And yeah, and so then there's this question of like why bother I can I can have a great life without kids , so we're gonna dive into that question and , unpack it a little bit more before we do that.

I'm going to just let everyone out there. No. And Dave, pardon me for for yapping so much without giving you any space. , In October, we are starting another eight week cohort. , this is exciting. This is, , gonna be eight weeks of meeting every Wednesday night, , from 7. Here at the, in this office here, which you can see this is the first time we're recording on zoom and not in person.

I'll just note that. And so there's a little bit of a difference there for Dave and I, um, which also means though that you can watch us on , YouTube, if you're interested. Yeah, so this is going to be a chance to dive deep, to connect with some other dads who are also, you know, dealing with, the celebrations and struggles of being a dad.

Um, where Dave and I are going to facilitate the, the heart work that we do, the soul and spirit work that we do, and the connective work that we do. Dave, do you want to just say anything about what you're excited about for this next

cohort? Well, I'm really excited that, , it's going to be eight weeks. , if you're familiar with Council of Fathers, we've been running six month cohorts, which has been really profound and deep , and we are, , responding to feedback and Also just, , our own sense that, , this eight week model, , might be more accessible to some folks and,, that we can go deep quicker meeting every week rather than every other week.

So we're really excited. I'm excited to, to, , to do this model. , and you know, no one mentioned the office that he's sitting in right now. Just a little plug. It's, it's beautiful. , and it's off a left hand Canyon. It's just a, it's a beautiful spot to gather. , and there's just a transformation that happens when you pull off the road.

Off the main road and enter this space, , in and of itself is, , meaningful. So can't wait to start. If

we're starting in October, rather than November, we can probably have some sessions outside or on the fire, um, by the pond. Like there's, there's some outdoor spaces that we can feel like ourselves immersed in and the beauty of the fall, those golden leaves.

Okay. So David,, meaning, why is it meaningful to be a parent? And, and why is this topic alive for you? Because I brought it in when we, like, we're talking about things to talk about on podcast.

And then, um, you were like, wait a second, meaning and purpose is everything. Yeah.

Yeah, it really is. You, if you recall the name of my, my practice is living and working on purpose and, I named it that because. Something happened for me when I pivoted, in my midlife, when I sort of entered the second half of my life, I noticed this pivot from seeking pleasure and avoiding pain, which is sort of what I was taught as a human, and Reinforced for in my first half of life.

So Jung, talks about this, the meaning of the first half of life. The purpose of the first half of life is really to provide, to succeed, to achieve. And to meet the demands of the external world of our teachers of our parents of our culture of, , everyone were really responding to the demands of the external world.

And then at a certain point, many of us turn a corner and that often coincides with having children, right? It did for me for sure. I, I, uh, was in my thirties, late thirties when I. Had Rafi and, I was experiencing this pivot from the meaning of my life being about meeting outside expectations.

To the meaning shifting to some call within some, uh, realization that what I was seeking, searching for was not going to be found without, it was going to be an inside out job. Um, and, and then, , making big changes in my life to align with that. And then, you know, finding out that I'm not alone and there are a lot of people.

In this phase of life, new parents, uh, people in general just shifting, , to search for the meaning from within, as opposed to, um, having it dictated from the culture without,

I want to share like an insight that just sort of like popped up for me, um, but I'm not sure what the order should be. Do you want to continue to share? I want to hear, I want to hear your insight. Okay. Okay.

So, um. When insights pop up, you got to follow them. You got to speak them. Okay.

So, well, I'm contrasting what you just shared with me.

Bill Plotkin's model of human development, ? Which, which says that in each stage of development, we're, we're tasked with a cultural task and a soul or a spirit level task, ? , and that we're supposed to be all along the way, developing. How do we fit into the world and relate to the world and , have friends and have a job and , how do we be in the world in in the human culture.

And at the same time we're also supposed to be developing on this soul level of like well what you know like finally, who are we and who am I and like, how do I be myself and why am I here and what am I here for and that that is. guys. Is in, in, , what Plotkin might call the ideal culture and world, something that would be happening in tandem all along the way.

Right. Rather than making it to midlife and then all of a sudden being like,, I'm supposed to be, this is, there, there's gotta be something more than this, . , to be growing up with the sense that , , there is more and I'm, and I'm in it and connected to it and, and a part of it.

So my insight was that, through whatever combination of life circumstances, upbringing, the traditions I was brought up with, living in Israel. I don't know. I've, I have been raised with or grown up with a sense that life. is imbued with meaning needs to be imbued with meaning that it is more than just I don't know, getting a job and, and, you know, getting married and going through the hoops and, and all of it.

Like, I always knew I wanted a family , , whereas a lot of other , men that I would talk to in college or after college in those years, and even to this day, , , men will come into our circles and be like, yeah, I wasn't really sure I wanted to have kids.

And, , sort of got,, pushed into it or fell into it and so, it was an aha moment for me that like, I was entrained from a young age to, to listen for, to find, to seek, to Connect with meaning and deeper meaning of things.

That's something I'm really grateful for and something I think that's helped me, work towards the life that I'm in and, and be where I am, you know, now. Yeah, that's beautiful. And last but not least, it's something I'm trying to, , imbue in, in my children, , teach my children, , show to my children and other children in, in the community that I'm a part of and whatever , my role ends up being.

Yeah, that's amazing. , and so you're, , you're speaking to , the range of what's possible, ? , so , Bill Plotkin, for those who don't know is a psychologist. He's got an institute here in Colorado, which is very nature based. It's called the Animist Institute. And he, , Is very committed to a model of, human development that seeks to pay attention to , highlight and foster.

, this idea that nature. And, uh, attention to, deeper meaning and purpose every step of the way, every developmental step of the way, could save a lot of us from this midlife,, crisis, right? It is a, crisis is a good word because if we don't tend to it for 35 years, It'll catch up to us, ? And,

and

Plotkin's got this radical idea that maybe we could tend to it, uh, from the jump.

So I love what you're saying too, that you feel you were raised, , to value deeper meaning. And part of that might've been religious. , part of it might've been cultural, , value around not just the surface of things, not just the accomplishment of, , tasks, but something more, something., underneath the surface .

So yeah, as you're speaking, I'm, I'm, I'm wondering what, what we're defining here is meaning, right? So when you say you were raised to value , what do you mean by me? What do you, what do you mean by meaning there?

Well, I think there's, there's two things. Cause I, um, one is that sense of purpose.

Yeah. That sense is that, is that I'm here on this planet for a reason, that my life has a purpose, even if it's not always clear to me what that purpose is. , The, the purpose that was taught or given, or, or I was invited into was , As cliche as it might sound, but like make the world a better place, , to do what I can and whatever big or small way to, , improve the lives of those around me, to, , be in relationship to the world in a way that's generative and good, ? Yeah,

leave it a little better than when you got here.

Yeah, and then when it comes to meaning,, , from a very young age, , there was a lot of storytelling, learning stories, , mythical stories.

, and then unpacking, , , what is the meaning? , why did this character in this story,, do this thing? And what does that mean that, , they made that choice and, what would it have meant if they made a different choice? And, , in my tradition, it was also all often like, well, this person, was reading this story and thought it meant this thing, and this is what they took away, and this is what they taught their children.

And then this person read this story and, made it mean this thing, you know, and how do we take something that's hard and difficult and uncomfortable and wrestle with it and grapple with it and, the example, I think that I'll probably be writing about this week for our newsletter is a raccoon.

Fell into my office over, not this past weekend, but a weekend, a week ago. And wreaked havoc, you know, pooped , and knocked things over. And it was a total and great ransacked. Yes. And so , first it's like, okay, well, things like this just happened and that's a bummer.

And it's like, well, you know, like, what is the message here? What should I take away from this? ? And so the first thing I do is I find this medicine card book and I look for , how's all these animals and what they mean. And I read about that. This is the porcupine, but I read about the raccoon.

The raccoon is all about generosity and taking care of each other and how we share the bounty. And , okay, that's beautiful. That's interesting. I'm not sure what to make of that.

And

then last Tuesday, I'm here , scrubbing the floors on my hands and knees , and , the day that I was doing that was, , a day of commemoration of the destruction of the Jewish temple.

And it's a big day. It's a day where we fast. It's a day , where we're in grief. , that this place that was really special and sacred to us was destroyed and we were exiled. And here I am in, in what's my little sanctuary. Feeling the impact, of what it feels like to have the sacred space defiled , and feeling a connection to this historical story , of my people.

And that felt, , interesting, you know, , so that's an example of me, , yeah, love that sort of taking a life experience. Yeah. And sort of grappling with , , how should I, what should I do with this life experience? How should I make it like, you know, and, and looking over here and saying like, well, this is interesting.

Okay. , maybe this is a call into , more generosity and look at this other thing. Maybe this is a call into. Letting myself feel grief around destruction and around things being ruined and letting myself feel the hope of rebuilding, and transforming things.

And, you know, and how does that now story of a raccoon breaking into this place in space, , weave itself into like, this is a place where people come feeling wrecked inside to receive, to be held. In a way that allows them to clean up the mess that they have inside and to leave here feeling restored and renewed.

And so now this actual building has gone through that process, ? And so how much more potent, ? That the actual space has had a healing experience, a healing experience of being wrecked. And now you come into here and that's sort of in the walls, ? , and so already there's an energy of , , you can fall apart and you can get put back together.

. And, , and so that's an example of weaving meaning and, and, and finding meaning and creating meaning. And that's what I mean. Yeah.

. Yeah. Great example. Great example of, of, uh, of something that. happens daily as a parent, ? It's a raccoon in your story, but you know, it's a kid in every other story, , ransacking the room and, , painting on the walls with their hands.

And, and we have a choice in those moments. And that's, that's what I'm hearing there is that you, one choice, the obvious choice. And by obvious, I mean, The reflexive or the, one we're sort of, we practice most in our life and we're reinforced for most in our life is to say, this is awful. A raccoon fell through the ceiling, tore up my place, my sacred place, and my day is ruined.

And, , why did this have to happen? I had plans for today. I had an image of how my day was going to unfold. It was going to be bright and sunny and, and joyful. And then the raccoon had to fall through and ruin my day. you know, if I'm honest, that's, meaning making mechanism, a meaning making, uh, pattern.

That I fall into, , that may have had some sort of benefit at some point in my life, , but now , has diminished returns. It, it doesn't serve, it doesn't serve as much as you taking the time to say, that's one choice, that's one path. I could see, , the meaning of my life is to have as many pleasurable experiences.

As I can and to minimize as much suffering as I can and a raccoon fell into the office and ruined . I can't avoid that. I can't get pleasure now, ? That's one choice But to turn towards it and say, well, maybe life isn't about that. Maybe life is about, not trying to avoid adversity at all. Maybe it's about embracing adversity when it happens. And learning from it and mining it for a deeper understanding about myself and about how the world works and it can open up my perspective to new things, right? First it was a raccoon, and then it was, , a link to my heritage and to an event that's so important to me and my, my people.

And then it's about what I do for a living and the people I serve. And now the raccoon is no longer a barrier to my happiness. The raccoon is enriching my perspective of life, you know, then you walk up and you have an incident with your kiddo. Here's another opportunity, right? I'm a dad and, my daughter doesn't want to eat what I made for dinner.

I don't want that. Reflexive responses. You are disrupting what I had planned. You are disrupting my happiness. Like, that's not even conscious, right? That just, that just comes up, , automatically. I, I have a plan for how this is gonna go, and she is disrupting my plan, without thinking that, that's just happening, and then I'm like, trying to control her, in order to get my plan back, get my plan back.

narrative back, get my script back, but if I can pivot, , , and see this instead as an opportunity, , even like, Ooh, this is exciting. What's happening here. My daughter and I are engaging in this. This age old problem together, what's going to happen, ? That's a different way to, to start to make meaning out of a situation.

And so to come back to your original question and maybe about the article too, why is this so important? I feel like as parents. Starting to make meaning out of parenting is sort of a make or break kind of deal. If we are trying to use the old script that says, , I need to control my environment.

And when my kids disrupt that it's bad, that script is.

Problematic at best, and it keeps repeating, right? But if we can start to see parenting as an adventure with adversities that arise, and get excited and curious,, or at least minimize the dread, then it becomes interesting and rich and, , less threatening, I think.

Well, and, along with that, .

If, we just had kids cause we thought we were supposed to, or , that's just what you do when you hit a certain age or that's following some, again, like a script or if we had kids because. , we were pressured into it by our partner or our parents or, , society, or we want to, , we thought that was a sign of success, or we thought it was going to fill some void in our life, ?

, this is very different from being like, having children is weaving me into the tapestry of humanity, right? Like, having children is, is, is connecting , this thread, this chain that I'm a part of, , and , is a way of me contributing to the future of, of humanity and this planet. . And , I'm going to do , with as much humility as possible, my best , to raise humans , that can also follow that, , way of being in the world.

That's a lot more, more meaningful. You know, there's a, there's a purpose there. There's an intention there, , and so I, I know I'm going into this knowing this is going to be the hardest thing I ever do. I'm getting, my heart's going to get broken over and over and over again. My blood's going to boil , on the regular, , my hair's going to start to fall out or I'm going to pull it out, right?

Like raising children in, in the world that we live in, , is really incredibly difficult. And I'm going into it saying, I know it's difficult. But I want to do it because, because it, it means something to me. It, , it's part of the purpose of why I'm here. Right. .

yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I just want to acknowledge that,, there's such a range of experiences out there and, that I know I for one, , I have a lot of, a lot of privilege and, , my kids are, , healthy and, , they are,, high functioning and that,, for me to say, , to find meaning and adversity,, is one thing.

And if you, , have a kiddo with, with really high needs or, , challenges that require, ,

,

so much more time and energy and money , that, it may be much, much harder to hear this and to, to think about making meaning.,

Can I respond to that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I sat in a circle of beautiful,, incredible humans, dads, who all are parents of children with special needs, with different needs, differently abled children. There's all different ways of saying it, right? But like, um, in a vast spectrum. And, and I heard stories. of parenting that I couldn't imagine, difficulties, adversity, ,

just hearing them from these beautiful humans was difficult, , not to mention like, and, and they were there receiving support from each other and, , giving support to each other. And sharing stories and meaning and , what I was hearing a thread woven, you know, was like, there was something in the experience , That this was just, this was part of their path and they were figuring out , how and why that was and what to do with that.

Yeah.

. And, and I'm with you. I, I also have a lot of fortune and privilege and, and relative ease. Yeah.

Yeah. I love, I love that though that the value of, of coming together and supporting each other. Part of that value is to, , share, uh, different perspectives. And, , when, when dad's come to council fathers, they're often.

locked in a narrative of their situation that is limited by, I mean, by nature, like we all do that. We, we see the world from a specific lens, , we have to, there's limited,, focus available. So out of survival, , particularly when the kids are really little, We're just sort of seeing things through a narrow lens in the hope of surviving something.

And then we come together and we speak that narrow lens out loud. We hear ourselves and our own narrative that begins to, to expand the narrative, just saying it out loud. We watch other men nod. And, , little nonverbals, but also, you know, minimal encouragers, like, you know, amen sometimes. And, and then we hear other similar, but,, expansive reflections.

From other men or other stories, and it starts to create a little more space around the narrative gives us a little bit more perspective, like we can see our story differently. and, there's a little more choice there, ? And how we start to see , the meaning of what's unfolding, right?

So, I wonder if we could sort of,, think of,, a new father, , coming to us and, , Noah, , What would you suggest in terms of meaning, purpose, and parenthood? Like, I'm coming to you and I'm saying, they said it was going to be hard.

I didn't know it was going to be this hard.

I love that question. I mean, the first thing that just comes is, is to, you know, never, never underestimate the power of sharing and telling your story. Never underestimate the power of listening and hearing or reading other people's stories. And most of all, never underestimate the power of a question.

And I think the question here is like, what's the story you want to tell? What's the story you want to live? Right? And, and, and maybe you have to write and rewrite or tell and retell that story again and again and again. Until you find. the next best version, ? But, but one of the, yeah, the power of men's groups and circles of, of therapy, of coaching, of having a good friend who knows how to really listen deeply is that we, we, we get this sort of, tell our story and hear ourselves tell it and then notice what we're saying about this thing that happened and how it's, you know, or this, And part of that just, like, gets it out of us, ?

So it's not just, like, this thing that we're holding inside of us. Part of that helps us release the feeling. Helps us release the intensity. Helps us release the grief. Helps us release the anger, you know? And part of that is, we get to, we get to make something there. We get to, We get to make it, tell a story, and, and sometimes when somebody's listening in the right way, the story we tell is going to be a little bit different.

If we tell that story from our head, if we tell that story from our heart, if we tell that story from our bones, we're going to be telling a different story. And if the person listening to us is listening from their heart, It's gonna be different than if they're listening to us from their mind, if they're listening to us from their bones, or if they're listening to us half distracted by all their to do lists, you know?

And then so I think that question of like, what's, what's the story I want to be telling? What's the story you want to be telling? Um, I love that. Yeah.

Yeah. Awesome. So, we didn't get as much into purpose today, but, but in terms of meaning, yeah, starting to, , See that you're telling yourself a story, most likely, and, uh, finding a way, to become aware.

What is my current story? What is my desired story or ? What's the story I'd like to be telling? Mm hmm. ? So , know where I am, envision where I want to go, then start, yeah, start taking action in that direction, ? If this is the, if this is how I want to tell my story, how am I going to spend today?

How am I going to interact with my kiddos today? Yeah.

Love it. I mean,

yeah.

That, love it. Thank you.. Thanks to all of the people who have chosen to make or take the time to listen to us, , talk about parenting and meaning and fatherhood. purpose. And, , hopefully it's been of service and been meaningful to hear and touch them somewhere or plucked some heart string.

And if you did enjoy it as a listener, we would, , you can feel free to subscribe to the podcast. Um, you can feel free to share this episode with, um, a friend or a family member or, , colleague or coworker. And, , feel free to leave a review or rate it. If you want to read an amazing depiction of how a cat stuck in a tree can teach you about relationship and relating, you can check out our newsletter, which is on Substack, it's just counselor fathers.

That's upstack. com. Uh, you can check out our website, council, the fathers. com. If you are interested in the eight week program, you can find the information there, you can sign up for it there or, , apply, I should say. And you can also email us at connect at council, the fathers. com with any suggestions for podcast applicants or, , requests or podcast guests.

We're, we're, we're open to all of that. Dave, anything else you want to say?

Come join us in October and, and start to experience what we're talking about here. Start to experience a shift in meaning, , that makes, makes parenting, , you know, an adventure and, and do it with other men, , that are going through something similar.

Yeah. Thanks y'all so much. We'll see you next time.