Council “Uncut” - a Conversation with Moms
In this unique and special episode we invited Kate Kripke and Deb Rubin from the Podcast Motherhood Uncut onto the podcast for a deep conversation about “Good Enough Parenting.”
One thing that can happen on the journey to becoming a better parent are big encounters with shame and guilt when we fall short. On the flip side, do we forego accountability with self-compassion and forgiveness? With that as an introduction Dave and Noah along with Kate and Deb dive into an awesome conversation around how we find the balance and the sweet spots for growth and change without shame and guilt.
Transcript (please not the transcript was generated with AI and may be imperfect):
Episode 12 - Motherhood Uncut featuring Kate Kripke and Deb Rubin
[00:00:00] Noah: Hi and welcome to the
Council of Father's Podcast. We are exploring
that wild and crazy journey we call fatherhood. I'm Noah.
[00:00:10] Dave: I'm Dave.
[00:00:11] Noah: And today we're doing something a little different.
[00:00:13] Dave: We're doing something special today. We have some very special guests.
Uh, we have the stars of motherhood Uncut.
Deb and Kate, thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:00:28] Kate: So happy to be here.
[00:00:30] Deb: Thank you for having
[00:00:31] Dave: If you haven't checked out Motherhood, uncut, mothering, uncut, mother
[00:00:36] Deb: motherhood,
[00:00:37] Dave: had it right the first
[00:00:38] Noah: time you did.
[00:00:39] Deb: right. got
[00:00:39] Dave: it.
Motherhood un. check it out. , it's awesome. And , we thought today we would call this, , council uncut, right?
Little
Combination,
And what we wanted to talk about today is sort of a follow up on our last episode where we were talking about guilt and shame, which I've started to call silt.
[00:01:02] Noah: shilts
[00:01:03] Kate: good.
[00:01:03] Dave: I don't know if you liked that or
not.
[00:01:04] Deb: I love that.
[00:01:06] Dave: and um, in particular this concept of the good enough parent that that comes up and really this tension that Noah and I feel
[00:01:16] Noah: mm-hmm.
[00:01:17] Dave: dads come to
our groups and they have these, this incredible intention to be better fathers, right?
Their goal is to be a better dad, and what tends to come along with that? Is this idea that they're not good enough as fathers as people, right? So this tension between like the project of being the dad, I want to be being the parent I want to be, , without beating the shit outta
myself in the process.
[00:01:56] Noah: And I'll bring in like
just the other, the
other
side of the coin, which
is the piece where I would notice that, you know, I got into this, this big self-forgiveness
kick,
right? And anytime I would mess up or do something, I regret it. I would just be like, all right, let's just be gentle with myself and, you know,
this,
these
things happen, and, but it, and it felt like I wasn't holding myself accountable.
At
the
same time, it felt like I
was
sort of falling into complacency and using this like I'm good enough, you know, as an excuse to just not
change. Exactly. Yeah.
And
where's that like middle, middle line?
Middle
[00:02:38] Dave: Manhattan? So, so the first question is, do mothers deal with this
[00:02:41] Kate: Oh, God. You can answer that question for us. I mean, I ha I, I have very strong, passionate feelings both about this idea of good enough and also about the idea of guilt. And I think good enough is interesting, right? Because in many ways it's really useful, right? We do not need to be perfect parents. We only need to be good enough and you know, Donald Win.
Convinced us of that, right? This idea that like, ah, mistakes are important to be making in relationship development and self-development, and so perfection misses that, but so good enough in some ways feels really important. It feels important to start there, but what are we actually talking about when we say good enough?
[00:03:28] Deb: and one thing that women go through constantly, and maybe men too.
I'm curious to hear your opinion, but is this comparing mind? It is like we are programmed from a very young age to compare ourselves to others, and so when I also wonder about. Good enough. It's like compared to what? And that there's often this theme of inadequacy that comes with that. And we're being messaged that all the time.
You don't look good enough. You're not thin enough, you're not tall enough, you're not whatever. You know all these things. And that is, I think that that deep messaging of inadequacy and comparing mind plays into motherhood, which actually does the opposite of what women need to be doing for each other, which is building each other.
[00:04:13] Noah: a hundred percent.
I feel like the comparing mind lives in us,
you know, in that
same way.
,
[00:04:20] Deb: Fathers compare?
[00:04:24] Dave: Yes.
. Noah's a better father than I
[00:04:26] Kate: am
[00:04:28] Noah: One of the things I think Dave and I.
really
try to emphasize in the podcast, in our work in councils, in the men's groups that we do in coaching is our own fallibility. Right? We, we are. So, you know, it feels really important to share stories of like, oh, this is how I fucked up. This is, you know, and this is how I fixed it.
[00:04:51] Deb: Yes.
[00:04:52] Noah: Or I wish I had fixed it sooner, or this is what I wish I had done right.
But like,
because.
Yeah, because the last thing I want is people thinking that there's the perfect parent out there that , that they need to strive to be like, you know? Yeah.
[00:05:09] Kate: Isn't that part of this though?
When I hear, when I talk to mothers about this idea of good enough, certainly is the case for myself. I go into like the doing mind.
right?
I think about mistake. I think about what am I doing? Am I, am I making mistakes in my actions? And what we know is that no one is perfect in their actions, right? And we all make mistakes and we only have to be good enough.
And then we have to, to your point, Noah, take ownership for our mistakes and lean into them so that we can learn from them and grow. Where I have a tricky.
Trapped in this idea of good enough, and this is new for me as a psychotherapist, if I move from like my psychotherapy model to my coaching model, I'm just gonna name here that I think there's so much value for all of it.
And as as therapists, we're really taught to meet our clients where they are. Right? That's a very profoundly important part of good therapy where many of my clients are.
And I
don't wanna meet them stuck. I don't feel like that's helpful. Like after it's good to sort of name the challenges and name the discomfort and name the mistakes.
And then we need to sort of shift and move. And so where I get really interested is like, what if the reality was that we could feel great? Right? Being a what if we could both feel awesome and be a good enough parent, right? Because I don't know about you guys, but when I feel good,
[00:06:42] Deb: I
[00:06:42] Kate: up pretty damn well.
You know, I'm more likely to say, sorry, I'm more likely to learn from my mistakes. I'm actually less likely to make mistakes, actually.
[00:06:53] Dave: That's it. I, I think
[00:06:54] Deb: that's,
[00:06:55] Dave: know, you mentioned Wincott. I think that's where he was coming
[00:06:58] Kate: from. Mm-hmm.
[00:06:59] Dave: well, well twofold, right? One is that it's not good for the child for
the parent to try to be perfect, right? Yes. And or for the child to try and be perfect, the child needs to make mistakes. Mm-hmm.
that's imp really important part of developing. Right? But the other thing is like, you know, it's not letting you off the hook to say you're good enough. It's saying that, uh, that striving for perfection and comparing yourself with others makes you.
[00:07:33] Kate: feel bad,
[00:07:34] Dave: Feel bad and it's, uh, counterproductive. Right?
[00:07:39] Kate: It's like swimming upstream, paddling
[00:07:41] Dave: Totally.
I always think of, um,
when I, when I used to play little league and that moment where you, you take, you get a, you, you feel the grounder and you have to throw it to first the performance pressure to throw the ball to first is like, it's so easy.
You could do it all day. Practicing in a game, you choke. , and it's like, it's the same with any kind of performance. Parenting can be like that too. Like the very pressure that we put on ourselves to do well is the thing that makes us joke, . But feeling great is about. Yeah. It's like, when is enough enough?
I'm a good enough person. Right. So it's like we, we joked before about like, great enough. Right? Maybe. Maybe. Great. Is the new good enough?
[00:08:30] Kate: I have a que can I ask you guys a
question about
your work with
respect to this? I, Deb,
I think you and I have talked about this, but I'm curious about with dads, right? We get caught. I think mothers get caught in this cycle, especially with young children.
We sort of assume that all we need to do is feel good enough, so not even just be a good enough parent. It's like, well, I can't expect myself to feel great because I'm motherhood is hard and I'm running around doing a million things, so I just need to feel good enough. And to me, for a long time I was like on board with that.
Like, yeah,
[00:09:07] Noah: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:08] Kate: motherhood is hard. Of course you don't feel great, but then. Fuck that. Right. So, so I think we can get stuck when we assume that because this job as mothers is so complicated and hard that we don't get both, we can't both
feel
the challenge and feel great at the same time. And I guess I'm wondering, Deb always wondering what you think about this, but I'm also wondering how that shows up.
That idea shows up at Dad's. Cuz when I hear you say this, the dads who are like, . I mean, Deb and I, we talk about this all the time, even outside of our work, like right, like if I go inward and take care of myself, so I feel really good. The doing of motherhood is not that effortful.
[00:09:54] Noah: Mm-hmm. It's actually
[00:09:55] Kate: quite easy.
Mm-hmm. , right? I mean, it's logistical, but it's not like full of effort. But that only happens if I find a way to take care of myself first. That was a lot of
[00:10:05] Dave: words
[00:10:06] Noah: That's a really.
[00:10:08] Deb: I.
[00:10:08] Noah: great
question. Go ahead.
[00:10:09] Deb: ahead. Well,
I was just
gonna say it's interesting to have this conversation about feeling great, being good, all the guilt when I think that that is so unique for so many people,
what feeling great looks like.
So in our culture, I think that we really value the joyful extrover. It's like they seem like they're feeling great, and I think there's great greatness in that, but I also think there's so much wisdom in someone that is just feeling connected to themselves and that might look quieter, that might be messier, that might even have some tenderness attached to it.
And so, When I think about how we relate to our kids, it's like, to me it's about how do you feel embodied? How do you actually feel present with your kids? And to me, that is greatness, you know?
And it,
[00:11:09] Kate: that feels good. It
good when I, I just wanna clarify. Yes. When I talk about feeling good, I mean like my nervous system is not activated.
Yes. I don't necessarily mean, just to clarify that I'm feeling energetic and a ball of energy and Right. I'm talking about like literally in my body. I feel good. Yeah. Versus feeling I ease or tight, this is such this. Yeah. I'm curious, this is such mothering conversation, talking about how we are feeling.
Do you guys talk about how you're feeling as dads and with your clients as well?
[00:11:48] Dave: Noah and I are both, um, nfps, we're both intuitive
feeling, uh,
, folks. Um, but no
[00:11:57] Deb: Oh, really. Well,
[00:11:58] Dave: Well,
[00:11:59] Noah: I think one of the things that stands out about the space that we create in Council Fathers is that it is that people do and can talk about their feelings, and it's for men,
for dads
such a breath of fresh air and such a like relief and,
An experience of taking
the load off.
And when you. , when you started describing the, I, you know, this, this concept of feeling good that isn't extroverted and energized,
you
know, the thought that came up in my mind was like,
I'm
not sure how many men, how many dads have a concept of that, or like, um, you know, really? Yeah. And, and, and maybe I'm.
Stereotyping in my own way of like, um,
but yeah,
I, my, my sense is that, there's a huge gap when it comes to being present in one's body and like being able to. feel great, feeling uncomfortable, feel, or, you
know, feeling
feelings. Yes.
yes.
You know, and even the fact that they might be perceived as uncomfortable, you know, because it's sadness or because it's tenderness or because it's vulnerable.
Right? , and so what, what I, what I have witnessed a lot of is, The, the, the feeling great of the after sharing of the
after like
being Yes. Yes. The, like,
I've just verbalized what I've been feeling
silently and on my and and alone
in myself for all this time.
[00:13:44] Kate: It's like how you feel after you throw up. Yeah. .
[00:13:47] Deb: Well, and it's how, a, and it's how a child
feels when they're receiv.
[00:13:51] Noah: huh?
[00:13:52] Deb: Right. I mean, when someone, when a parent can actually have the enough presence regardless of their mood, and be able to reflect that back to a kid. , a kid feels completely held and I think that's when co-regulation happens. And to your point, when we're, when we are regulated, we have the ability to co-regulate our kids and then there's this nervous system settling that has nothing to do with if we say the right thing, what we do with them, the sense a be doing versus being.
[00:14:27] Dave: Yeah. That
[00:14:28] Deb: to me is good and
[00:14:29] Dave: good. Yeah. For, well, for me, yeah.
So, Kate, when you were talking about feeling great and parenting and I was like, huh. Yeah. And then, and then when Deb's like reframed it as, um, feeling Yeah. The nervous system or you did feeling calm in the nervous system. Yes. That's it. It's like, that's
probably the number one. Goal or, idea that dads come to us that they're looking to feel, they're looking to feel present is what they would describe, which is not a feeling, but a state, right.
That they
want, to be it's an experience. Yeah.
Right.
[00:15:03] Kate: We live, I think, I think. It's fair to say as a generalization
that
men. Tend to live in their heads. Right. You're, you're problem solving, you're thinking, you're planning, you're fixing. Right. Again, generalization and women tend to live in our bodies.
We te we, we are more comfortable and familiar with talking about how we feel in our bodies. Right. And to me, what I hear you saying is such an interesting distinction because when I feel good, I feel clear.
I.
Clean. You know what I mean? Like, like there's no drama in my brain and my, it's just like, it just is.
And that to me is this space where I'm more creative. It's easier to problem solve. I have more tolerance for the crap my kids come to me with. I often am saying that. My defin definition of mental health is not actually feeling good all the time. It's being willing to not feel good and learning how to not react to that so that we have access to feeling good.
Right. Because of course, when I talk about this idea of feeling good, I'm not talking about like 24 7. I mean, we need those emotions to tell us where we're off track. Right. That's so interesting.
[00:16:22] Deb: I have a question for you guys.
[00:16:23] Noah: Can I just wanna share the, the word just that keeps coming to mind for me is, is capable.
[00:16:29] Kate: Yes, yes.
[00:16:30] Noah: Yeah. Is that, is that I can face whatever's coming at me and, and there's quality of like groundedness and resource and, um, you.
And so, yeah, I just wanted to float that out
there.
[00:16:44] Kate: Space,
[00:16:45] Noah: but yeah, We,
[00:16:45] Kate: in order to feel capable, we have to have that space in our brain and that space in our thinking.
[00:16:52] Noah: Yeah,
[00:16:52] Deb: And capacity for
uncomfortable
feelings. That's right.
So, question, when you're working with fathers, do you, do you sense that the community that you work with is more in that fix it mentality? Do you see that the problem solving,
[00:17:08] Noah: I mean, it's been fascinating to see how different the groups of, of dads that that show up for our different cohorts have been and
Yeah, I mean, I like, so the, the work, the group that we're currently working with, I would say that's
like not as much
of their orientation, and, and there there's a sense of seeking togetherness and, uh, connection and, and the space to process. , at least that's what I, what I see. So. .
, but in the past we've definitely been, you know, seeing people coming in with like, this is my problem and, and this is why I'm here, is I I want to fix this problem.
And
yeah.
And, and often in the coaching work that we do, that, that's sort of the starting place and it's
a really,,
valuable
starting place. Right. It's, I think, , I think it's helpful for, for sort of a lot of the conditioning that people are coming in with, and it does, it can feel helpful to have a direction or an orientation of like, what, where are we going here? ,
but I
think often, you know, we, we get there in, in a, in a circuitous way, not, not as a, would be expected,
if
that
[00:18:13] Deb: makes
sense.
I, I think there is
[00:18:14] Dave: a, like a bent towards like doing better rather than feeling better.. Like that's sort of the goal is to do better as a dad. And sometimes, and, and part of this idea of good enough father for me is like, I don't want to collude with that,?
I don't want the message to be like, you're right, you're broken and I can help. Become, you know, fixed there. There's not, you're not broken. There's nothing wrong with you. You are good enough. You are whole,? yes. Yeah. Your,
[00:18:47] Deb: you're worthy. You're talking about the worthiness of just being alive.
[00:18:51] Dave: Yeah.
[00:18:52] Kate: making me realize.
Sorry,
I interrupted finished. Well, it makes me realize that, that we're ta it's interesting cuz you, you've started by putting this term good enough parent in the middle of the room. Right? And as we're, I'm hearing you guys talk and as we're talking, I'm like, wow. I actually think it's likely that the majority of mothers and the majority of fathers think of, and look at that.
Very differently. We're actually probably having two different conversations. Right? Because what I'm working with my clients with all the time, I think we all are actually in this room, is like when we learn how to sit with and experience discomfort, we get to what you're saying right now. I'm okay. I can feel deep discomfort and still trust that I'm okay.
And to me, the idea of good enough mother comes from that place. But it sounds like what you're saying is that when dads hear the term good enough, dad, they're thinking about, to your point again, like, what am I doing to, to act like, to be in action A good enough dad is, am I hearing that right?
[00:20:05] Dave: Yeah, yeah.
[00:20:06] Kate: Um,
that's an, that's sort of an interesting. Perspective difference, isn't it?
[00:20:11] Dave: Wait, so, but I just wanna clarify. So you're, you're saying that you don't think mothers are concerned with doing, like with the action of
[00:20:22] Kate: No. isn't
[00:20:23] Dave: the same. You don't think there's the same?
I mean,
[00:20:25] Kate: I
think there, in my experience, there's this, that women are coming in saying, I don't.
I don't feel like a good mom. It's about a feeling.
I don't feel like a good mom. I mean, to be quite Frank's, most mothers don't have a choice. They gotta do all the shit. No one else is doing it, right? So it's like they're driving their kids to, you know, they're doing all the stuff. They're, they're, maybe they have a job and they're right.
So, and again, we're generalizing here, but I don't know for my clients is about am I doing enough? I think it's about, I'm not feeling like a good enough mom.
[00:21:00] Noah: I mean, just what's coming up in, in, in, is that like a lack of like not having it reflected back to them? Like how, how much, how
Yeah,
one
of my, one of my love top love languages is words of affirmation. And so I'm, I'm familiar with what it feels like to, to not be getting those words of affirmation that I really want and, and, and what it feels like to be getting that and like, um, yeah. But, and I think, um,
I'm trying to
contrast that to, to what I
hear
in the experience of, of
Dad. and
I,
Dave, you look like you have something to
[00:21:43] Dave: I, I mean, I, I'm still trying to flesh this out, but like,
When we talk about concepts like development
and attachment.
and you know, like when we talk about the impact that parents have on their kids, there's this like, hope, oh, I can, uh, I can have an impact on my kids. And then there's also this fear, oh my God, I can fuck up my
[00:22:09] Noah: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:09] Dave: Right? And that fear is what I, I think is counterproductive.
[00:22:14] Deb: All right. I have two things to say.
Yeah.
First
of all, I think it's really important for all of us as parents to remember that the way we truly mess up our kids is by consistent abuse. Neglect and abandonment. I mean, that is like, or you know, if someone is unable to show up and like, but that there's so much room for resilience in the process of we're going to make a million mistakes when we repair consciously, they're going to remember the repair.
They're going to remember that moment where a parent showed ownership and humiliation.
and then really asked the kid, how are you doing? You know? And so I think sometimes when I work with parents, I wanna give people permission that, and this goes back to this brilliance of mistake, making that to really like, fuck up your kids, you know?
It's, it's extreme for that stuff to like sink in very deep. And not to say that we're ta, there's no part of me that's taking people off the hook of not take taking care of themselves because as adults it is our responsibility. This is kind of what you started by saying, it's our absolute personal responsibility to take care of ourselves so we can show up for our kids, um,
[00:23:34] Noah: and to work on ourselves so we can show
up better.
[00:23:37] Deb: to keep growing, to keep getting curious with ourselves, to keep having, you know, self-reflection in order to reflect for them too. Um, the thing that I get really curious about is how you started this whole conversation of guilt. So when you say that your dad's come in and they have guilt that they're not doing it right or doing it good enough, can they, can you help me understand what they're guilty of?
[00:24:04] Noah: yelling?
[00:24:05] Deb: Uhhuh, losing
it
[00:24:06] Noah: not being present, being
on their phones. Uhhuh,
working more than they really have to so that they don't have to be around their kids because it's difficult.
And you know, a lot of the dads that we, we, that come into the, to the councils have younger kids, which is like a different phase from I think the teenage. Um, and
yeah.
I think, I mean that those are like a few, I think yelling and, and checking out are like probably the, the, the top two, um,
Yeah. Right.
[00:24:40] Deb: Yelling and checking out is a, is avoidance. Right? It's avoidance of everything we're talking about. Of sitting with the discomfort of avoidance of presence. So I guess I wonder, is a little guilt a motivator?
wanna
[00:24:55] Kate: very strong feelings about guilt.
I think guilt is really
[00:25:00] Deb: useful
[00:25:02] Kate: and really important.
Like any emotion. Only if we're really willing to feel it and get curious about.
Messaging in it, right? I mean, anyone who's a therapist or a coach is gonna say there's wisdom in emotions and feelings if we're not willing to feel them, we miss the messaging in it, right? And for me, guilt, we feel guilt when we're breaking a quote rule.
It's a rule that someone has set for us or a rule we have set for ourselves.
The way I talk about guilt is when we're feeling guilt, one of two things is happening. We have a rule that we have set for ourselves and we've, we've taken an action that's out of the integrity of that rule. Okay. The guilt is important to feel, cause it's reminding us that we're out of our integrity, we're out of alignment, or we've set a rule for ourselves and we're feeling guilt and the rule needs to be changed.
[00:26:01] Noah: Mm-hmm. ,
[00:26:01] Kate: right? Yeah. Like good dads. Never are on their phones when they're at home. I don't know, making that up just bright and y You know, I think for us, for, for us in the mom work, it's often, you know, what I see a lot of is that the guilt around being a quote unquote good enough, mom comes around with like, good moms are, are available to their children.
Right? Good moms are.
Always showing their children love, like, I don't know. Right? And find me a mom who's always available to her children or always finds, you know, shows her children re love. And so that's the time where I'm, I will ask, what is your rule that you have about motherhood that you think you're breaking?
And then we get to say, what if we change the rules? You know, what if good mothers gave their children plenty of room to learn how to be on their own without
[00:26:58] Deb: them?
[00:27:01] Kate: look at all the space you just cleared up. Right? . So I think guilt is really motivating and directive for us as parents in finding that good enough mother or that good enough father.
[00:27:13] Deb: I hear you saying too is that guilt mixed with some empathy
is
motivation for behavior.
[00:27:20] Kate: Yeah, for
sure. And and compassion, right? If I'm feeling guilt and I let myself feel it, and of course we need to do that. And of course we always, I think many parents, moms and dads miss the compassion piece, right?
They're like, oh man. Of course I feel that way. I just yelled at my kid. Of course, I'm feeling guilty. That makes sense.
right?
And then we get to ask ourselves, how do I wanna feel? I don't wanna feel guilty. I wanna feel connected to my kid. Okay, what's a thought or an action I can take that will lead me to feeling connected to my kid?
Oh, I can, you know, come back and do some of that forgiveness you talked about Noah? Or I can get down at my kid's eye level and say, wow, I just yelled at you and I didn't take my deep breath and Right.
[00:28:06] Noah: I, I love
where you're coming from and how you're orienting towards guilt and, and just naming it.
Well,
nothing more than like a message around us doing something that feels out of integrity. And then we have to assess whether the, the, whether it is in integrity and like the thought of what we thought was in, in integrity was wrong, or whether it was out of integrity and how do we come back into integrity?
And I think what I see more often than not is the guilt is, is a shutdown and it causes. Um, you know, maybe more so with dads than with moms. Maybe it's the same, I don't know, but like, you know, withdrawal, there's, you know, the guilt spirals into shame.
[00:28:51] Kate: I was gonna say that sounds like shame
[00:28:53] Noah: to me,
right.
[00:28:57] Deb: Can I
add on that? Yeah, please. Because I totally agree with you and I actually think that so often with all of us parents, but I see this particularly with dads too. Cause I work with a lot of dads as well, that. When we don't have a conscientious transitional moment into being a parent, then there's a lack of self-love and really pausing before putting on a different hat.
Because, and I'm gonna generalize a bit, but you know, where a lot of times moms tend to be doing that, like after school to dinner vibe, which is really hard hours. I think most moms will say like four to six is like, either you're shuffling all over town or making dinner or burning dinner if you're me.
[00:29:42] Noah: And
[00:29:43] Kate: Deb, it's also the time that we feel the most guilty of stepping away to take care of ourselves. Right?
[00:29:49] Deb: right? Yes. Yes.
You know what I mean by that?
Yeah, absolutely. Right. It's cuz when it's a, it's, and it's also a time where we collect our kids and that time of collection is really important. So then when dad, if dad's working later than mom and I'm, I feel really like Gendery right now.
So I just wanna acknowledge that . But that if Dad doesn't take a moment to transition, especially in the younger.
then he's actually doing a disservice to himself, which then impacts the whole family. So I remember so many years in my own experience of my husband, my beautiful husband, Howie, would walk in the house and I'd be like, here, and I would just like pass him a baby.
And he had no time to transition. And so I'm really like, I know I'm getting a little problem solving ish, but I just think that honoring the transitions of roles, is actually such a beautiful setup
to not losing it.
to not wanting to exit the situation. That's all.
[00:30:52] Noah: I
love that
[00:30:53] Kate: Can I ask all three of you a question, um, about this? Because I'm sort of taking, I have this, I'm really fired up right now in my work in a new way that feels. Good. Actually. It feels really fun and exciting and empowering for both me and my clients, which is about personal responsibility. Right. And I'm curious to hear what you all think and Noah, that you made me think of this when you talked about
[00:31:16] Deb: how
[00:31:17] Kate: this thing can happen with
[00:31:19] Noah: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:19] Kate: When it does, when we don't involve those other two steps, compassion and then action. We get stuck in guilt and it can turn to shame, and shame is debilitating. , we don't move when we're in shame. Right? And I've been asking myself in my own life and also my clients often and approaching things like, how do you want to feel?
[00:31:39] Noah: Hmm.
[00:31:40] Kate: And what is a thought or an action that will lead to that feeling? And why don't we just start there?
[00:31:49] Noah: Hmm.
Because
[00:31:50] Kate: the
only two things we can control are our own thoughts and our own actions. That's it. Plenty of influence, but that's the only place we have any control. So if I think about your dads, and I'm assuming because I'm married to one, and also because you know, you're saying this, that dads want to feel competent.
They want to feel present, they want to feel, I don't know, what might some other words be?
[00:32:13] Dave: The dads that come to us Yeah. Yes. Are,
are like, there's a selection effect, right. That dads that are coming to us are
invested, in. yes. Improvement. Great
[00:32:24] Kate: point. And then, and then when I hear you talking about the sort of guilt or shame that they feel when they're not
[00:32:33] Deb: having
[00:32:34] Kate: that experience, I just, I, I know it sounds simple, but it kind of is simple.
That's how I feel right now in my work, both in my own life and also in my work with clients. And I'm wondering what the three of you think of that concept with either moms or dads
[00:32:53] Dave: and just, uh, the concept is sort of how do you want to feel, and then how do you get there?
[00:32:59] Kate: How do you wanna feel? And then I guess in some ways I'm sort of saying rather than think about all the reasons why you're feeling.
Bad, quote, unquote bad ways to actually really ask the simple yet profound question. How do you want to feel and what is a thought or an action you can take in this moment that will lead you closer to that feeling?
[00:33:24] Dave: I like the first part. I really like the, how do I want to feel? Um, I'm, I'm trying to wrap my head around like, what is a thought or action to take to get there?
[00:33:35] Kate: there? Well, our thought, right? Our thoughts, our beliefs lead to our thoughts, leads to our feelings, lead to our actions, lead to what our life looks like. Right.
[00:33:44] Dave: yeah, I agree with the beliefs part. Yeah.
[00:33:46] Kate: Tell me more. Where's the, where's the uncertainty? I mean help, talk me through your, what you're thinking. Yeah.
[00:33:51] Dave: Yeah. ,
well, core beliefs are, are, to me, are sort of like, um, they're well hidden and they're, um, deep and they're, um, sometimes old. Um, and my thoughts personally, Dave, um, are quite.
They're, they're firing away all the
time. Yes. Right.
, and so I really, I personally like to sort of set an intention of how I want to feel.
Yes.
And then it's more, for me, it's more like, observing when the thoughts come up. Yes. And I get hooked in them and letting them go. So it is sort of the negative aspect or the side of what you're talking about is sort of like,
You know, act calls it defusion, right?
Like the watching the thoughts arise, , and letting them go if they're not
taking
me in the direction of how I wanna feel,
[00:34:48] Kate: I don't think, just to be clear, I don't think I'm s i, I agree, right, but we get to choose which thoughts we give our attention to. I feel really strongly about, that's my lens for me. When I lean into that lens, I feel hugely empowered. I do not feel stuck. I have space to lean in to.
whatever.
Um, and I think the actions really are like, how often am I like making choices in my life as a mom?
Cause that's what we're talking about that are keeping me stuck in feeling incompetent or feeling frustrated. Right. And I, you know, it's interesting. This is not a well received concept in psychotherapy. ,
right? Yeah. It, it really isn't. And it's also why I am moving away from psychotherapy in many ways and not entirely.
I still have a caseload and, and I believe fully in psychotherapy and trauma work and all that. So I don't wanna be too dismissive of or dismissive at all of like people who are really struggling. But I really think we get in our own way. And so the question for me is how do we get out of our way? How do we ask ourselves, what part am I playing in this thing that's not working for me?
[00:36:04] Deb: thing? What were you gonna say?
[00:36:05] Noah: Well, I, I think, um, in general,
just to begin with,
my orientation has,
Thoughts and feelings
much more intertwined and like
almost co as a,
as a unit as opposed to it being that sequential.
Um, I've seen, you know, I think feeling states can give rise to certain thoughts
the same way thoughts
can give rise to
certain feelings.
And it's sort of, I,
I see that line and that like, uh, less
linear, um,
and.
and
then from both personal experience and, and of, and working with with other people. My sense is that,
you
know, again, this is, you're saying this is what you do with people, you know, in a session. So, um, to, to, like, I think there's one can be so caught up in, in the moment in the experience in the, that
like doing that switch around.
could feel
difficult
or, or even unattainable. And, and I think just, um, that, that question of what do I need to do right
now
to feel the way I want? I
don't think it always,
like, I don't even
ha, I don't have a clear, I
mean,
go for a run is probably like the most reliable answer,
which isn't always possible in
the moment.
[00:37:30] Kate: the
bottom of your foot on the floor, or take a deep breath.
I mean, it requires being present. Being able to ask that question requires being present, where I think all four of us feel so strongly about learning how to be present.
[00:37:45] Noah: A hundred percent. Yeah,
and I, I just, my, I think my, I think what I see
for the
people that we tend to work with is, is, that's exactly the question is like, well, I, I don't.
What I need to be doing in these situations. Right. And that's where like the coaching comes in or the, the circles come in or the, um, and and slowing down and pausing and is, is, is often another, what's part of getting present. So I don't know if you, did you have
[00:38:14] Deb: to answer this question,
I
still am very much a psychotherapist too, so I have that, you know, experience of sitting with people really in it and.
and
it doesn't feel stuck actually to feel someone deeply in an uncomfortable state.
I don't think that's what you're
saying.
[00:38:34] Kate: No, I mean, I do that too. It's a both end in my
[00:38:37] Deb: so
I'm, but I think I'm, I'm just sitting with the discomfort that it can, that can come up in not really knowing how to get out of your own way sometimes. So I think that's what I'm feeling. I wanna, I wanna talk, share my personal experience, but I wanna actually touch on something that you said that was so important and I think this is a place we all actually align, and that is the collective of parenthood.
And when you said that, when a dad can really share what's going on. And that feeling like you, after you just threw up that relief that comes up and I said it's about being received and kind of flipped it kind of too quickly into that's what where our kids thrive. That is actually where we as adults, I think thrive so much too.
And so to be in community where you get to talk about. the hard talk about the messy talk about the strengths and talk about the wins so much and be received in that. I actually think that that is where another level of where we thrive as parents, cuz we realize we're much more alike than we're different.
And I'm just going to jump again really quick that in the women's.
that
I'm privy to is we're so often taught not to be proud of ourselves cuz it can come off as bragging. And so, and we're then teaching and I work with mothers and daughters of course, then sometimes we're teaching our daughters that unconsciously.
And so I make a point in a lot of my circles to have a brag session and you know, we talk, we commiserate about the hard, but I'm so into bringing. The wins because we have so many more successful moments than we're even allowing ourselves to realize. Which I think could be a really cool way to talk with your dads too, of like, where did you succeed?
Like tell me more. And let me just say when listen and then, and that when we actually share the wins that gi, so this is kind of to your point, that gives us to be witnessed in a win, gives our bodies a felt sense of what it's like to.
doing
a good job or feeling good about ourselves. And when our bodies have those experiences on a somewhat repeated process, we can access it quicker.
Mm-hmm. . Okay, so now I'm gonna circle back to when you say, how do I wanna feel? You know, a lot of times I wanna feel present. I wanna feel, if I'm really honest, I wanna feel like I'm saying the right thing to my kiddo at any given moment.
that feeling?
is authentic. It's feeling like I have access to my language.
It's feeling like I can deeply listen. That's not a feeling, but the ability to deeply listen. Also, not a feeling.
connection. Yes, absolutely
[00:41:33] Kate: engaged.
[00:41:34] Deb: And when I don't feel that it is very,
in my body. So again, to one of our points, someone said it feels like tightness. It feels, you know, I can feel heat in my cheeks.
And then, I, I'm at a stage right now with my kids at their age that I can remove myself because I actually can say I am, I am not here, and I'm gonna go 10 to myself and lay down. I'm a big, like, laying star pose and put on Joni Mitchell and put my hand on my heart and take five, you know, listen to one song and come back.
And
so that's actually one of my strategies of, how I
[00:42:12] Kate: the same thing, right? How do you wanna feel? Yeah. And then you go do those things to access that
[00:42:18] Deb: Absolutely.
And I think to your point, we are parenting older kids and there's a, there's more room in that. Yeah. To be able to leave them alone and in, when there's little, little kids and they're like, mommy, mommy, mommy, daddy, daddy.
You know, then it's, that's harder. So that was a really long answer.
[00:42:39] Dave: Yeah. And. Just, I gotta go pick up a couple kids pretty soon. So I wanna just try and see if we can sort of maybe synthesize a little bit. I think we, we started off with this idea from DW Wincott who was a, a, uh, pediatrician. And, um, I think, you know, he was, he was trying to share with mothers at the time. It was, it was early.
19 hundreds, that you don't need to be perfect. And that actually it's important to make mistakes and it's important to model what happens when you make mistakes. And that's important for kids to see. Um, and we then talked about differences that maybe there might be in terms of, you know, feeling and doing, and.
We wandered into guilt, um, and shame. And, um, yeah, that might be like a step. is like, you know, there's a layer of guilt . That maybe comes up on the way to how you wanna feel. I don't know. And, and
[00:44:01] Kate: I don't think you have parenthood without it.
[00:44:04] Dave: Yeah.
It's a part of parenthood. . Yeah, so maybe being okay with the guilt is a, is a good step. Right? ,
[00:44:13] Noah: just, to, I think actually
listening to the guilt was what I was taking away was, was,
yeah, you have to be okay with it to be able to listen to it, but like, if you can hear the message.
I'm out of alignment. This isn't, this is uncomfortable. I don't like the way guilt feels. Sure. But like, it's telling me this important thing, you know, I care about x, I want to behave in Y way and I didn't. So now how am I gonna fix
Or
[00:44:43] Dave: am I gonna move
[00:44:44] Noah: Right.
There you go. Okay. Yeah. I
like that
better than, how am I gonna fix passion? Yeah.
[00:44:49] Dave: I think that's, it is. Yeah. What to do after you make a mistake.
[00:44:53] Kate: there's so much you can do.
I
mean, that's the beauty of mistakes. There's so much we can do. And to me it's about, it's back to that word being how, how can I be with myself when I've made a mistake? So that then whatever I do after that is within my integrity.
[00:45:12] Dave: Yeah. Nice.
[00:45:14] Kate: And in service of the relationship.
Right?
[00:45:16] Dave: Yeah.
[00:45:18] Deb: Yeah. And I think one theme that we all touched on is the importance of presence and how to be present. We have to be regulated. Mm-hmm. . And so whether it's putting a foot on the floor, like Kate said, going for a run, listening to music, having moments of watching thoughts, and.
Letting
them go or you know, working with them. Those are all techniques that we all use. That I think is really, I think everyone has access to so many more little tricks than they're even aware of. And to bring that front and center can make people feel equipped, right? There's so many ways
[00:45:56] Dave: I want to use the F word and see how it goes, but when
[00:46:00] Deb: is
[00:46:01] Dave: compassion something like forgiveness? When we're talking about what's happened after you make a
[00:46:08] Kate: mistake,
I, I mean, for me in this moment, compassion and forgiveness are very different things.
Compassion to me involves reconnecting with myself, with love. I don't have to be ready to forgive in order to show up with compassion.
I mean, I think this is a whole other podcast topic we should
[00:46:31] Dave: Yeah, totally.
[00:46:32] Kate: Right? But I think, I'm not talking about forgiveness because I might still be really like I might do something or act in a way that feels so not okay with me in the moment that I'm not ready to forgive myself, but I don't wanna abandon myself in that moment.
I need to stay steady with myself, with like, Valid. You know, the, not the, it's okay. I did that validation, but like, yeah, that was a crazy ass moment. I don't like what I did, but I'm gonna stay steady and love myself through it. To me, that feels different than forgiveness, but I don't know. What do you think?
[00:47:11] Dave: yeah, that's like what you just described is how I would describe forgiveness, but it, but it's a loaded
term. Yeah. And, and it, it's, the connotation has something like letting myself off the hook. Yeah. Which I, I get that. That's the,
[00:47:26] Kate: beautiful. Well, maybe, but I actually just, I guess I'm just saying to me, compassion can be spontaneous and in the moment, and to
[00:47:34] Dave: me quicker.
Yes. Quicker. than Forgiveness. Yeah. More Forgiveness more accessible.
[00:47:38] Kate: ta. Yeah, exactly. I would love to, for all parents, moms and dads to be able to have access to self-compassion anytime they want and need it. To me, that is a good enough parent. Here we are.
[00:47:53] Dave: There you go. Right.
[00:47:54] Noah: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:54] Kate: To me, that's the key to being a good enough parent and we all have it.
We don't. It's all here for. We just need to access it. It's not like we have to go out and find self-compassion. I mean, we all have access, but yeah.
[00:48:10] Dave: I will not forgive myself if I'm late to pick up my kids
[00:48:13] Deb: to pick up your kids. Yes.
[00:48:14] Kate: was so
[00:48:15] Dave: But Thank,
you
too, so much. Thank you.
So good fun.
and everyone listen out there.
[00:48:21] Kate: We'll continue the conversation over at Hood Motherhood Uncut.
[00:48:24] Noah: Perfect. That'd be awesome. All right, Thanks.
Okay.
[00:48:26] Dave: Thanks for listening.
[00:48:29] Noah: Woo.
All right.