Feel it to Heal it

In this episode, Noah shares a personal healing experience and then Dave and Noah break it down to reveal how we can process triggers in a way that releases them. If you’re interested in understanding the mechanics of healing triggers this episode is for you (check out this blog post as well). First, Noah shares a play-by-play of his experience processing and releasing an experienced in which he was triggered. Then Dave and Noah break down the each step of the process to help illuminate how and why it works.

If you’re interested we reference the article Is Acupuncture Psychedelic Medicine?

The biggest takeaway is that healing can and does happen with the right support and in the right container. We can actually work through our triggers, so that we don’t get triggered by the same things. We know that triggers are a real thing, especially for dads, and that working through them creates space for more loving and easeful relationships.

And Here’s the A.I. generated transcript… please forgive mistakes:

Feel it to Heal it - The Healing Journey to release triggers

Noah: Hi, and welcome to the Council of Fathers Podcast. We are here to talk about the

wild adventure we call fatherhood. I'm Noah.

Dave: Hey, I'm Dave.

Noah: and welcome to the show.

Dave: And how you been?

Noah: Have I

been in , . 

Dave: Let's try that again. How you been? 

Noah: Um, how have I been? Good. I've been really good. Overall, I've been having kind of a.

Funny morning. Um, can't quite put my finger on what, there's like um, sort of a tenderness in me and I'm feeling actually excited about how much

I'm letting myself feel it rather than push it away.

Dave: than Nice. Well, how'd that happen? 

Noah: How did that, the meat,

uh,

Dave: the allowance 

Noah: allowance? the permission. Um, I think it goes back to being in a good place and 

Dave: mm-hmm. 

Noah: feeling, um, like that is the way I want to be. when I have the capacity to be Yeah. with myself.

Dave: Yeah. Cool. So sort of resourced and, um, like there's an intention there too, 

Noah: to feel it all. 

Dave: Wow. Yeah. That's a lot, 

Noah: a lot. It, it is a lot, but it's, I mean, my sense is that, you know, if there's a I think it's Dan Siegel

"feel it to heal it" 

Dave: mm-hmm. , 

Noah: but like, not even to heal it. Just to like, let it move, go where it needs to go.

I know enough by now. that trying not to feel it isn't gonna make it go away. It's just gonna like stuff it down, so, yeah. 

Dave: The futility of resisting life.

Noah: yeah. Yeah. 

Dave: Yeah.

Noah: Yeah, 

Dave: Yeah, especially like with a family, it's like, there's so little control I have over my experience these days. Like I wake up to the river is already flowing and I, and I can like try and grab all the branches and stuff on the edge and, you know, usually get scraped up or I could just like, you know, lift my feet up, tuck my arms in and enjoy the ride because, This day's happening one way or another.

Totally. 

Noah: How did you come to that? 

Dave: A lot of injuries. A lot of . A lot of scrapes, A lot of bruises. Yeah. Futility. Like really sort of giving up,

Noah: Mm.

Dave: giving up the fight, you know, the resisting trial and error. Um, age. Um, yeah. 

Noah: Was that part.

of your

Experience this morning, that process or? 

Dave: Um, yeah. I mean, I, I woke up to I don't know.

Sometimes I just wake up and, maybe I, it's been a rough night of sleep or like the dreams didn't quite, you know, Helped me the way I was hoping, or, or I woke up MidAm and just woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Mm. And, uh, 

Noah: Rach'

Dave: that might literally help, huh? To just like mix it up. Um, but, uh, yeah, so.

I just sort of white knuckled it this morning, which is different than acceptance, you know? Mm-hmm. . But all I had really, and uh, but then I got like this opportunity, I dropped the kids off and I, and I got to take a little walk and that shifted everything.

Noah: That shifted

Dave: Yeah. That's the, the other amazing thing, like the first amazing thing.

Quickly I can get lost in discursive thought and worry and, agitation. That's remarkable. Mm-hmm. how quickly that can happen. But what's also remarkable is how easy sometimes it can be to come back and, um, you know, sometimes it's not, but. But today, yeah, I, I guess I got lucky

Um, I mean, lucky absolutely to have the time to take a walk, but also just sort of he was able to sort of access a different state than I was in, you know, I was in an agitated state. I walked for a brief time, maybe a half an hour, and over the course of that half an hour, I just sort of like, as I do sometimes just sort of watched my thoughts rather than following them or getting hooked by them or really investing in them.

. Like leaves on a river. Right? Like that little meditation from act, acceptance and commitment therapy. Letting them come up and sort of like you're saying with, with the emotions you were feeling this morning, like, when you're sick, you know, you let the phlegm up and you get it out.

Yeah. You know, and, and,

That sort of was my process with my thoughts up and out and I noticed my state shifted from agitated to pretty calm and pretty present. Like, you know, I say it's a state because it's almost like all of a sudden all those worries, which were very real to me., not so long before, um, we're like fiction you know, like, and so I, I felt present in the sense of, no past or future for a moment there, you know, 

Noah: And, it's interesting because you're talking. like A little bit more in terms of 

Dave: Yeah. 

Noah: Yeah. But I have the sense that, you know, all of those thoughts are tied to emotions. Right. And you know, you're using that word worry, which we often apply to thoughts, but is also sort of a feeling. And so there's a way in which, you know, watching it was like letting yourself feel it and you know, being outside, moving, walking, letting yourself see Your thoughts, maybe letting yourself feel feelings or maybe not, but maybe like it works in either sort of either cognitively or emotionally, right? Like those are just two parallel paths that both lead to the same, uh, end point. Cuz ultimately like the whole idea of like feeling a feeling all the way through letting it sequence is that then in the tail end, there's relief. then presence usually, right? It's like after a good cry or a good belly laugh, you know, it's like, ah, you know, I'm here. And, um, and so I'm, I guess, I don't know if that sound, does that accurate or like it lands like it resonates or,

Dave: resonates or, yeah, I think like if, the common theme for me is resistance versus acceptance, and like when you say really feeling feelings. Um, that's sort of the opposite of like avoiding or trying to suppress, repress, avoid, move away from. and so that strikes me as a step in the process, which is if I'm going to. my thoughts come up and, and sort of, 

Noah: and, 

Dave: um, let them go. Mm-hmm. and not hook me. Mm-hmm. , uh, I have to be willing to, um, be present with how I'm feeling.

Noah: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. 

Dave: But I, yeah, probably the same mechanics for both thoughts and emotions are similar. 

Noah: Mm-hmm.

Dave: The other thing I think we're talking about is the way in which a state of consciousness can sort of, be a condition for you called it relief, you know, I think you also said the word healing or, or like, you know, there's lots of words for it, but , Resolving something that's stuck or moving, something that's stuck.

And it, it sort of reminded me of that piece you just wrote 

Noah: wrote Mm. 

Dave: around, acupuncture as, as a way to provide that altered state that is sort of a healing, um,

Noah: Ah, Is 

Dave: that ? , did I just, uh, no, that's, muck that up. 

Noah: No, no, that's accurate. I you're talking about the, the is is acupuncture, psychedelic medicine one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, 

Dave: great. title. 

Noah: Thank you. Um, yeah, I mean I have a lot of,

well, thoughts and feelings and experiences.

With Accu with regards to acupuncture and with regards to altered states of consciousness and, and how they they impact who we are and how we are in the world. And, you know, Healing and health of course. mostly what I, do in the world. right. and actually I have a, an interesting.

experience just from last week

That

that jives with that.

But

before I dive into the experience?

we'll put a link to the article in, in the notes,

Dave: My sense of the article. Um, was that acupuncture is, you know, a healing modality for so many issues, so many ailments, so many problems, . But the thing that stuck out to me about what you wrote which I hadn't thought of before, is that needles, acupuncture. also, um, sort of, I don't know, relax the body mm-hmm. in, in such a way mm-hmm. that makes working with thoughts and emotions more accessible. Is that, is that right? 

Noah: that's exactly right. Yeah, it can give us access to a deep sense of common relaxation. A deep sense of, peace, a deep sense of safety, and from that place, exploring Painful stuff. Exploring anxiety, exploring anger, exploring, whatever it is, is a lot easier. 

Um, yeah. And so like often I will, you know, will start a treatment. Someone will drop into this state of deep calm and relax. and really get a sense for for what it feels like in their body in their

minds, in their hearts, you know? And sometimes. This is really funny. is like people's bodies will get really relaxed. but Their minds will still be spinning.

Dave: Hmm.

Noah: So I'll lead them through a little exercise to kind of sink up the body in the mind Now everything's relaxed, everything's peaceful, and then, and then it's like, well, What happens if from this? We invite in just a little bit of anxiety

we're not, we're not like opening the flood gates. we're just like, feeling into it, gently seeing, and then all of a Sudden you can start to get to know this feeling that usually whether it hooks you, or overwhelms, you takes over There's a way of like actually having space to feel it and connect with it, learn from it, sometimes resolve it often.

Right?

And um, and that can end up. Going in a lot of different directions and taking us a lot of different places. um, and I guess I can get more specific with my own experience, 

Dave: like you've had this experience on, on the other end of the table. Like as a, as a client? 

Noah: Yes. Yeah. And in fact, I think that one of the reasons.

I'm able to, to do the work that I do with others is cuz of how much I've done it with myself. Mm-hmm. .

A Personal Story/Example

Noah: And yeah, just last week I got into a conflict with Rachel, my wife, and, um, and I set a boundary.

in that conflict. and when I set a boundary she withdrew and like vosh, the walls went up. And it was like, you know, she was physically still there in the room, but she was 10,000 million miles

Dave: million mm.

Noah: The Second she did. that, I felt this like deep intense fear and panic.

Dave: I like, like you got abandoned. 

Noah: abandoned. Like, I got abandoned. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was, but it was so intense 

Dave: and quick 

Noah: and, quick. Right. Immediate. And, and I immediately also went into like trying to reconnect and trying to like get her to take down that wall and, you know, fawning or feigning or some of like, take The technical terms for, You know, oh, let's, can we be in conflict dance, stay connected? Kind of like, You know, like, and I didn't. quite Take down the boundary, but, but I, I was in a state where that would, it would've been easy for me to like, go back on my boundary and, um, in order to reestablish connection.

any Right. . Exactly. Yeah. Um, and I, and, I, and I also, and so I was like that, that's what I need. To to work 

Dave: with now. Just, just quick question. Yeah. Did you know this was happening when, when it was happening or you're talking about like you later on you replayed the tape? Cuz I'm like, wow. That's some, that's some serious insight when you're triggered.

Noah: Yeah. No, it was when I was replaying the tape. Okay. I, I'm glad you because, because I think actually up until you asked that question, I mean, I, I noticed the intensity and everything in the moment, but it wasn't until afterwards that I was like thinking back through the experience and, and trying to process. It that I was like, oh, that is what I need to unpack.

Dave: Yeah. There's 

Noah: big there. Um, and what what's interesting is that it also kind of got me excited about, like, if we hadn't gotten to that conflict, if I hadn't exp, you know, set that boundary, like I 

I wouldn't have uncovered that, that whatever that is, Yeah, and been able to explore it more 

Dave: deeply.

That's beautiful, man. That's a, that's a really poignant moment when you start to appreciate conflict because it grows you right then. Like you don't have to walk on eggshells all the time avoiding conflict because you're like, oh, it's actually useful and helpful. 

Noah: Yeah. And I've heard that a lot , 

Dave: and 

Noah: maybe this was like the first time I ever like truly experienced it firsthand.

Um, and even, even then, like it's not for the faint of heart. Not that you can avoid conflict or, I mean Yeah. You, you can try to avoid 

Dave: Right. I Right. I hear running a marathon feels good too, but I'm not about to try it. 

Noah: I don't know that running the marathon feels good. I think that finishing of the marathon.

probably 

Dave: Oh, okay. 

Noah: Um, no, I haven't run a marathon.

so No.

But, um, or I haven't run like a, a Running ma. I've been in other kinds of marathons. I call it parenting. 

Dave: Mm-hmm. . 

Noah: Um, 

Dave: so 

Noah: yeah, so I, I went into, to my coach, and he was also an acupuncturist practices in a very similar way, um, as I do, and I sort of, you know, gave him the general. download of like, where, where I'm at right now, and then said like, this, this is, this is what it is.

So I, you know, I Get on the table he puts the needles in, and I always, it just like never ceases to amaze me. how quickly I Just like drop into. state and way, and like, it's so nice. um, and, and then I kind of bring this up and I, and I go back to that place in my mind to the scene. But I also like feel into. it and Feel specifically into that sense of panic. And, um, and again, I've been doing this for years with with my coach and I think a lot of it happened. You know, it, it's quicker and, and easier than maybe like the first time I was doing anything like this. But,

Um, and so then I'm like, I actually see. in that this, this, the room that we're having the fight, I see me as a three year year old, three or four year old, 

Dave: you're, you're you're laying on the table, acupuncture table. You've got needles in you and you're intentionally sort of going into the feeling, like remembering what it felt like. Mm-hmm. . And as you do an image mm-hmm. arises. Mm-hmm. . Um, and it's an image of you as a little toddler, as a little kid. Yeah.

Noah: And, and the like. It's like a mommy, mommy, don't leave me. Is essentially the, the the, the gesture that's that's happening in, in me, in, 

Dave: in, yeah. Yeah. 

Noah: Um, 

Dave: that's remarkable 

Noah: It is 

Dave: like how quickly you could access that image. 

Noah: Well, and again, I'm often surprised at how quickly other people, and it's, you know, it varies. It varies a lot. And some people get. like Clear, like memory, images and

other people it's more of a feeling or like there's less specific memory narrative in it. But anyway, for, you know, I think it's, it's just remarkable to me that everyone is capable of this. 

Dave: this. Mm. 

Noah: To some degree. 

Dave: Yeah. And in some 

Noah: way, and it's like different for everyone. It's, you know,

oh, actually first and I need to say this.

This is really important. The first thing that happened was I got really scared. This is before I saw the three year old. 

Dave: year old. Hmm. 

Noah: I lying down on the table and I'm like, and I'm saying, I feel scared about doing this. Because I'm worried, I'm scared that if I go through whatever process I'm about to go through, it might change my relationship with Rachel in such a way that it's, that it's different and not in a good way.

Like what if this creates some sort of irreparable rupture in our relationship? What if this like leads to, um, yeah, so, so there's, there's a fear there and I was able,

to,

circle back to that fear in the end. And you know, if I can speak quickly enough, then we'll have time to, to get to it all. But, 

Dave: but are you, but are you saying that um, there is some, potentially there's inherent fear in growth because growth can threaten a relationship?

Noah: Yeah, I can. It can.

Well, it

Growth usually includes change, right? And it's a change of the status quo, 

Dave: right? And so the system, it disrupts the 

Noah: right? And so we're in some sort of family system equilibrium 

Dave: that relies on you being a certain way. 

Noah: Yes. Being afraid 

Dave: that. And here you are, you can feel you're about to change and you're like, Ooh, do I want to Yeah.

Noah: Yeah. and I think it's the same like fear that people get around. like Taking mushrooms or trying a certain drug for the 

Dave: first time. Interesting. Or, yeah. 

Noah: know, it's like, 

Dave: what is this? Is this gonna change me? 

Noah: how is this gonna change? me? 

Dave: Do I have choice around how this happens? 

Noah: Right. . 

Dave: Or is this gonna change me beyond my readiness? 

Noah: Yeah. 

Dave: Well, 

Noah: and, and in that moment the way, what I did, I mean voicing that out loud, kind of almost alone was enough to let me dive into the process. Yeah. There was also an element of like reflecting back into my like, like having the fear kind of like look into me and be like,

I can handle this. I can handle whatever change comes up and, and I also have faith that the change lead to. positive goodness, you know, from past experiences. 

Dave: I was gonna say, when you say faith, I think Yeah. Uh, you mean experience, right? Yeah. 

Noah: Right. Well, but 

Dave: they're connected, eh? 

Noah: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so, okay, so then I'm a three year old. And then,

um, and then I'm asked, when was the first time? you felt this. I was, I was thinking we're gonna process this with this three year old. We're gonna help him out. And

Dave: Three's pretty far back. That's, I was impressed you were able to go that far back. 

Noah: And it's, you know, I, I just want to also name that, like, 

Dave: it's 

Noah: a vague, like a round three and like, I don't, you know, it's not like super vivid, like I'm 

Dave: in a 

Noah: a movie. I mean, it's, it's sort of like I'm being in a movie, but yeah, just, I don't want people to have like a false sense of what the experience was like, but.

I also can't depict it perfectly accurately.

Anyway. 

Dave: You're doing great. 

Noah: So he says, he says, he asks that question, 

Dave: when's the first time you remember feeling this way? 

Noah: And this is, I've only flashed back this far once or twice before, 

, but I'm, I'm I'm an infant. I'm, I'm maybe even a newborn, like pre-verbal.

like squirmy. I, I, yeah. And, and what I know is that I'm in pain. and I want my mommy , 

Dave: like 

Noah: I, there, like there's this gesture in my head of like trying to like find the breast, like the way you, if you've seen a newborn kind of search with their head for the breast and like maybe reaching with an arm like that the gesture like in my body in. my being and and this sense of like, I can't find it. It's not here. uh, yeah. Like, and, and So an utter fear and terror in a way. Yeah. And it wasn't it was like utter fear and tear, like turned down from like a 10 on the volume to like maybe a three on the volume. So like I knew that that's what the memory experience had, but I wasn't, I wasn't literally like freaking. out, If that makes 

Dave: Yeah. You weren't like going back in time. Uh, it was sort of a Yeah. Um, 

Noah: Yeah. Yeah. A little bit Titrated is like the, The technical term I think that gets used. But, and I, and I do think that the acupuncture is part of what kind of holds that dilution Um, and, and so, Long story short, I mean, I'm like sort of like, you know, I'm a little discombobulated and, again, thanks to some past experience, thanks to like a little bit of coaching and guidance, um,

I'm able to somehow bring what I know it feels like when, when you know mommy is there holding me. To that, to that memory, and all of a sudden there's a quality of still being an infant in pain, but like, everything's okay. I'm being held by, by mother, by love this. Everything is just okay. and, and I'm okay. And then from that place, like, and I'm like twitching and shivering and kind of like having sort of certain like somatic. discharge 

Dave: mm-hmm.

Noah: which again, I'm familiar with. So they weren't

uh,

Dave: disturbing. Disturbing, yeah. 

Noah: Um, but it's still weird even after, like having had these kinds of experiences before,

So like what is going on? um,

I get these flashes of all sorts of, little, like childhood injuries, teenager young adult, where like you know I've gotten it's like that same experience is now accompanied by that like mother right there with it

Dave: then.

Mm-hmm. 

Noah: everything's

gonna be okay

Dave: gonna be mm-hmm. 

Noah: and.

sort

of feel it like sequencing up in like through time. I don't know. I really know how to put, an, put it in another way. Um, and at some point, and this was really out there, and this is where I really get into like is acupuncture, psychedelic medicine.

Dave: like

Noah: I just get this sense that like even if any given physical pain experience, even if any given injury led to the, the physical termination of my body, aka death physical death. I would still be okay.

Be held by this like mother, experience, whatever, lasts beyond that physical termination. 

Dave: Hmm. 

Noah: And in that, that was like what? Like, Beautiful. Also scary in a way to like feel a certain level of like peace with the thought of death like nothing I've ever experienced

Dave: like, 

Noah: and then I started processing some grief experiences. Like I had a friend die when I was in my twenties and all of a sudden it's like, Re-experiencing my grief of her death, of like, oh, she was held by this. And then re-experiencing my grandmother's death, and my other grandparents' death. Oh, They were all held by whatever this mother presence is. 

Dave: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Noah: Yeah. Um, so , 

Dave: wow. That all happened, uh, in. Like an hour or something. Yeah. 

Noah: Yeah. I mean there were a few actually other layers to it, but That 

Dave: is a lot.

Noah: That is a lot. Um, 

Dave: yeah, and it's sort of like, just to summarize what it sounds like happened for you was something like your present day relationship. Triggered something old, which is, by the way, what relationships are for . It's, it's why we get into relationships is to heal the past. And, um, you had a tremendous amount of awareness about what was happening as you were.

Taking time to process it. And you also had this amazing resource of a, of a coach, an acupuncturist, who, uh, helped you attain a state of calm relaxation that allowed you to re-experience something from. that state, but also from like an adult perspective. Mm-hmm. . And so you were able to bring up this original maybe, uh, pain that had rippled through a bunch of stages of your life.

Lots of memories. It was connected to all the way up to the present day. and you were able to bring something larger to the experience mm-hmm. and something really like nurturing and, you know, I, I have to think like it's a part of you that you were bringing to another part of you, like a nurturing aspect that you're bringing to a wounded aspect.

That seems like it changed your current experience, like you followed the trailhead of the trigger back to the past and because you're able to be present with it, which sort of like the reason those hurts stay with us is because we're, we're not able to stay present to them. We have.

Splinter off in order to feel safe and to protect ourselves.

And so they, they live compartmentalized for 37 years and, um, and it's not until we can bring some sort of presence to it Yeah. That we can stop putting the energy into, um, keeping it at arm's length where it has quite a bit. power.

Noah: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really and thank you for kind of recapping the process of the, experience. I thought hopefully that's really helpful for people listening, right? Like that's Sort of like the step by step process for, for working with triggers and. and really.

Yeah.

And, um, working through triggers, I would even say.

and I,

Dave: well, it's never about what you think it, it's 

Noah: about going back to the principles.

Dave: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's the first step is you got into a conflict and it's tempting to say, first of all, , it's about Rach', not about you.

That's, that's tempting. Mm-hmm. . And then it's tempting to say, oh, it's about what we're fighting about . . But you know, the first step is it ain't about what, it's what I think it's about. 

Noah: Right. Right. Yeah. And, um,

I just want to say two little follow-ups cuz I to circle back to that. Being afraid of, oh, this is gonna change me. in a way. yeah. So I was able to sort of go back to that memory of actually seeing the three-year-old with, you know, in, in the room with me, as an adult and Rachel, in this conflict. and he kind of like, just like looked up at me and then like evaporated, like Harry Potter style and came like into me, into my body.

It was like, That was a.

cool B, but,

um, but the bigger thing was that I could, I, I could go back to that memory. and Granted, this is now, like, we're just a few days after this actually happened and I could be with Rachel

Without, ,the triggered, ness,

Dave: without the charge, 

Noah: without the like, like there was still a big charge. In, in, in the conflicts, but it was like I could be with that charge without getting like charged up by it. and it was beautiful because I could sort of be with what was going on for her mm-hmm. without bringing what was going on for me into the picture. 

Dave: picture. Yeah. 

Noah: And, um, and, and I think, you know, the, the true real litmus test, right.

is next time we have a conflict and I set a boundary, if she puts up a wall or if I even, you know, like, then do I feel that like sense of panic But I, I have such a sense of something's different They're like, I don't even feel like I, I need that I'm sure we're gonna get into conflict again and I'm sure that conflict will, will spark some other, you know, thing inside of me that has yet to be worked. through

At some, you know, but I'm also sure that we'll have conflict that doesn't spark that in me, that like I can, I can actually be present with in a graceful, kind and loving way. Um, and so, 

Dave: but then how are you gonna win the argument, ? How are you gonna win the conflict?

It's

Noah: better to be connect. 

Dave: Then

to be right, 

Noah: then to be right.

Dave: right. Mm. We'll see about that. Sometimes it's just gonna be right. No, I kid. I kid.

Noah: know you do.

Um, Yeah. 

Dave: Cool. Well thank you. That is amazing. Um, and I think the amazing thing is, is like, um, yeah, how well you can articulate it, you know, the, this process that is usually quite unconscious and quite. . Um, yeah. Automatic or, , it's so helpful to hear you do the play by play

Noah: do things Well, 

Dave: cuz the other thing you could have said was got no fight, got acupuncture, uhhuh feel better. Right. . Right. Well, and it, which is also true. It is, 

Noah: is. But that's a, a very, very distilled version.

it, it feels vulnerable. Some of that stuff to share. Yeah.

Um,

And I, I, I filtered out the, the most vulnerable stuff and,

Um, and I, I wanna say this is, this is something that I've been actually meaning to write about, but when I was 21 or something silly like that back in college and I was in this like long-term relationship with a girl that I thought, I thought I was gonna marry her and we broke up.

We broke up and um, and I said 50% of the reason this relationship didn't work. I don't wanna make those same mistakes again. In my next relationship, I'm gonna go see a therapist and, and figure out what was going on.

I went to the school, the school therapist. Saw him for like the free eight sessions was like that didn't do anything so I went and found another 

Dave: therapy. Yeah.

Noah: and,

and Started to like learn about myself and my relational patterns. And, and the reason I bring this up is, is, is because that was like, I don't know, a long time ago and I've been on and off, but to some constant degree in. process With healing people, whether they're acupuncturists or therapists, or coaches or, um, shamans or, you know, like I, I've been engaged in this process of, of, for a long time and first of all I just like, I want to name that. Yeah. Just, I don't know. I feel like it, it's important context. So like not everyone should experi expect to like, go in into see their acupuncturist and have this like, experience, but also just because, um, two things.

One is that the change takes time, but like that it also happens. Yeah. Right. And that like we, we do actually grow and change and heal and become new different people. Um, and, and it's worth it. It's worth going into the deep, dark, yucky places, um, to improve our relationships, to improve our friendships, to improve, you know, how we are in the world, um, yeah. And,

Dave: and how we parent, how we father.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Noah: It won't you. yeah. And so that we also don't pass down these intergenerational patterns. 

Dave: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that. You're, you're, you also are, are wired differently than like, not everyone's like wired to, um, be, you know, as interested and, um, insightful and, um, uh, Aware, you know, um, you know, different people have different styles, right?

And so

Noah: have different, I just wanna say also that like, also, you know, I had amazing, parents. I had an amazing childhood. I was incredibly privileged and lucky and loved, and knew I was loved. And even though there, you know, there was stuff I like, had just the right amount of advers. to like, gimme stuff, to like work through and feel and, and, and, you know, and just the right amount of like, love. and care and being tended to, like, I, I just, you know, cuz I work with people, who had very different childhoods for me and like, obviously, you know, I just like everyone is coming to this, to this present moment with their Background and history and and I, you know, and so yeah, like what you're saying is like not everyone's wired like me, and I'm wired in a certain way and I'm grateful for it. And I, and I recognize that it's a huge privilege to, to be wired the way that I am. And, um, and it's a mystery. So there's like that, um, of like, how, how we end up, 

but most of all, I wanna like share the love and spread the love. 

Dave: I, yeah, yeah. I guess, I guess you're sort of giving us, a play by play of an experience from. A very emotionally intelligent place, and I appreciate you, you saying part of that, you know, you attribute to your, to your privilege. Um, and, and I just also want to say like, one does not have to be as emotionally intelligent as you two, process through triggers.

So , um, so. Yeah, the, the bird's eye view that you provide is really helpful. And if you, if you don't have that same capability, don't worry. , don't worry. 

Noah: but, but Maybe like, I, I didn't start out with this much capability and I think what I'm be saying is I found people who knew more, who could see more, who could teach me, who could guide me. who could Support me in, in learning about myself in working through. these things. Yeah. Like that experience I just shared wasn't like me sitting on a mountaintop with my journal and, and like figuring it out all by myself. Like Right. What I'm also saying is , get 

Dave: help . Yeah. 

Noah: , because this journey isn't meant to be done alone.

Totally. 

And get help sounds so like, you know, you know, it's, but it's, it's.

just like, we all need help and, and like maybe help is even though support, like whatever the right word is. 

Dave: Yeah. That, that it happens in Relationship and, oftentimes it happens in relationship with someone who's playing that role. role. 

Right. 

You know, it's, it's harder. Um, it might be harder to do that kind of work with a friend or with a sibling or. A partner even Totally. You know? 

Noah: Yes. I do not. My wife is a therapist. 

Dave: She's not your therapist,

Noah: Yeah. Right.

Dave: Yeah. Anyway, 

Noah: Okay. 

Dave: we have digressed and we will continue to digress if we do not set an intention to stop this dialogue.

Yeah. 

Noah: And it's time. Um, thank you. all for listening. , and, um, If this was meaningful to listen to let us know, like shoot us a quick email or leave a review or you know, something, feel free to , that is helpful. If it was helpful for you, maybe it'll be helpful for somebody else. Um,

and I mean, we love hearing from. you guys, so please, please feel free to, you know, reach out and let us know.

And if you want this kind of support, whether it's, you know, in the context of acupuncture or coaching, you know, we both both offer coaching Reach out also for that. Um, and. We'd love to be a resource and keep listening, and thanks for coming along. for the ride.

Dave: along. Yeah, thanks y'all. Be well out there. And, uh, enjoy the ride.