Dad Guilt…

In this episode, Dave and Noah discuss and unpack parent guilt. The conversation meanders into childhood guilt and how to avoid using guilt and shame as tools for discipline (and why). We explore how to liberate yourself from the guilt cycle and improve your relationships with your children and family members.

Things we mentioned:

Book: Bittersweet by Susan Cain (and the interview with the author on Brene Brown’s Podcast):

Book: The Unethered Soul - Michael Singer

Book: It’s Not Always Depression - Hillary Jacobs Hendel

Movie about Emotions: Inside Out

Full Transcript (please note that transcript was done by A.I. and inevitably contains errors, we apologize in advance):

Ep9. Dad Guilt

[00:00:00] Noah: Hi, and welcome to the council of father's podcast. I'm Noah Goldstein,

[00:00:08] Dave: I'm Dave, Bonaiuto.

[00:00:09] Noah: and we are here to talk about the wild, adventurous journey we call fatherhood today. We are going to be talking about dad, guilt, nice little, uh, light topic there for you to.

Start off your, listening. And, , we're hoping to jump into this conversation with levity and humor, in addition to, uh,

[00:00:39] Dave: the

[00:00:40] Noah: depth that can be there.

[00:00:42] Dave: Beautiful. Yeah. Maybe other dads feel guilt too, not just the two of us, but you know, at the very least we. Work through this. Yeah. And people can listen to our little therapy session together.

[00:00:56] Noah: Hopefully, hopefully no one hopefully no one feels guilty because as soon as they heard the topic, they pressed pause and said, I'll listen to the rest of that later.

[00:01:07] Dave: totally. I just wanted to mention that there'll be some ambient noise in the, in the background. Some,

some peppermint. Is that peppermint

[00:01:20] Noah: that is peppermint tea.

[00:01:21] Dave: Mm-hmm so apologize for that in advance, but it's gonna happen.

[00:01:27] Noah: I think the biggest apology is that people are gonna hear that and they're like, Ooh, I want some tea,

[00:01:31] Dave: some

Yeah let's go with that. Huh? Dave, Noah

[00:01:38] Noah: Rafi just turned 10.

[00:01:40] Dave: Oh my God.

[00:01:42] Noah: How are you feeling about.

[00:01:46] Dave: Um, all sorts of things, man. I am feeling all sorts of things. I feel like there's a, there's a certain relief today, like a catharsis or something, but sort of leading up and, and yesterday was big emotions. It's for me, I don't know if other folks out there feel the same, but the transition transition from nine to 10 felt like this huge leap.

Like he just started fourth grade. Um, and then leap from third to fourth grade, at least at his school is really big. It's like things are getting serious, you know, like academic and homework and, um, yeah, there's just a shift developmentally and, He was telling me the other night that he's, he's stressed and you know, I've never heard him say that before.

It's like, life is getting kind of real.

And then he's just like so independent and autonomous, you know, we, he hiked longs peak the other day without me.

[00:02:54] Noah: well, you did the first half

[00:02:56] Dave: I did. Yeah. I hiked up. Chasm lake with him. And then he went the rest of the way with his buddy and, and our good friend, Tim, who was on the podcast last time.

Um, and it, you know, it's so special to see him do that without me. And to know that he, like, he wanted to do it without me. And it's heartbreaking

[00:03:18] Noah: Mm-hmm

[00:03:19] Dave: To know that he wants to do stuff without me, you know, my buddy, 

[00:03:25] Noah: Yeah.

[00:03:26] Dave: So lots of, lots of stuff. I'm really proud of him. And he's such a cool cat and, um , he's really turned out to be a teacher. And, and man, if, if someone had told me that parenting was gonna involve this level of like

Heartache and watching your kids experience pain, watching them experience life without me. , I think if you'd told me the intensity of the feeling I was gonna have, I don't know that I would've done it.

you know, that's why they, why, why they don't tell you you, know,

[00:04:09] Noah: well, and, um, I just wanna acknowledge in hearing that, that you're making a choice to feel those feelings,

[00:04:20] Dave: um,

[00:04:21] Noah: which. The intensity is large and a lot of humans knowingly intentionally or not step away, it gets too much.

Right. And so, um, I think it's beautiful that, you allow yourself to let those less comfortable feelings, you know, wash through you. And I imagine that letting them flow through you rather than stepping away from them, benefits you and in all sorts of ways and, and your family. And, um, yeah, I mean, Rachel, just read this book called bitter sweet.

After listening to a interview with the author, which I also listened to that interview. And

just that notion that, when we let ourselves really feel into the, the, I don't wanna say more difficult, the, the less the sadness, the grief, the, the, the heartache, right. Then.

Creates room and space for more of the joy and the celebration and the appreciation. And, and most of all, it keeps us from being numb.

[00:05:45] Dave: Yeah. I think that's true. I mean, certainly in my experience and

yeah, I think we're gonna talk a bit about that today, you know, but it'ss sort of this paradox that the more we intentionally turn towards.

Allow and intentionally feel, uh, big emotions. The bigger we become, the more spacious we become, because there's so much energy involved in trying not to feel 

[00:06:20] Noah: trust mm-hmm mm-hmm 

[00:06:21] Dave: It's like, know, um, who is it? Michael singer. Is that his name? The, the, um, untethered. I don't know if you ever read that it's a great book, but he has this metaphor of like walking around with a wound, a physical wound, and you know, like you have to step carefully around people and through doors and you organize your whole life to make sure you don't bump up against something.

Cuz it's so painful. You know? And we, we do that emotionally too. We spend so much. Energy trying not to feel things that we miss out on life, you know? And so, yeah, there's this paradox where we, when we start to allow this counterintuitive, , facing of feelings, then we get to experience more life.

Yeah.

[00:07:21] Noah: Well, and it sounds like there's a, what I was hearing in your description, which I like that metaphor of. Not feeling things is, is constrained. Right. And then, and there's actually this freedom when you know that you can feel things that are uncomfortable or not happy or not positive quote unquote, right?

Like, um, that it allows you to move through the world in a bigger, , more full way.

[00:07:52] Dave: Totally. Yeah. . Today's topic is yeah. Is dad guilt, dad guilt. Right. And really,

[00:07:58] Noah: I'm sorry to feel guilty that I maybe don't feel all my feelings

[00:08:02] Dave: Oh, good. I'm so glad. . Yeah. And, and this one sort of model of thinking about feelings that you know, you and I have talked quite a bit about, cause guilt in inhibitory emotion.

Right. Meaning it inhibits the feeling of other core emotions. Mm. And so if you think about that word inhibitory, it's like a governor, right? It's like we're trying to live a full, vital, fulfilling life.

we've

got the, the governor 

[00:08:40] Noah: mm-hmm 

[00:08:41] Dave: know, like you think of the go-kart with the governor on, so you can't go too fast.

Like there's this way in which we can inhibit ourselves from living fully. and one of those ways is guilt. You know, the other two are, are shame and anxiety. These are three inhibitory emotions or, or emotions that protect us from feeling. Overwhelming sadness, overwhelming anger, you know, overwhelming fear.

[00:09:13] Noah: I wanna. Mm, I wanna just like the, that would protect us, , because there's, there's a way as we approach this topic that, , it could be looked, you know, we've already said like guilt, shame, fear. They're sort of stopping us in a way, inhibiting us from more freedom, but what I'm, but, but before we sort of, um, Demonize them or vilify them.

Right? Like you just named something really important, which is that they play a, a protective role. They have a, a purpose there, right. That, um, maybe serves a role and, and maybe it's, it's serving a role. That's important until we are ready. And supported to grow out of needing that role. Right. It's kind of like a, it's a safety, right?

Like you, you don't want your, you know, 16 year old's child, maybe driving in the car over 40 miles an hour. So wouldn't it be nice if we could put a governor on the car when they're driving,

[00:10:29] Dave: maybe like four or five miles an hour, like

[00:10:33] Noah: right. Okay. But, and, and then, and, but then once, once. You know, you've reached a sort of level of skill and maturity, then it's time to take that governor off, not to say that

[00:10:47] Dave: Is it, is it Noah?

[00:10:50] Noah: not to say that we want that.

Like, we want to intentionally, especially like guilt and shame. We'll talk about that more. I think, as we go down this road, not that we want to intentionally insert these.

In our children or, or that we want them intentionally inserted into us, but that if they're showing up in us, um,

then

that was, that was for a reason.

Right. And you use that word overwhelming,

[00:11:23] Dave: Yeah.

[00:11:24] Noah: you know, sadness, overwhelming grief, maybe even overwhelming joy, right? Like we need something to. Put the breaks on, so we don't get overwhelmed

[00:11:36] Dave: and absolutely UN

Yeah. Duh, I love that. You're saying that these, these, the inhibitory emotions and this, by the way, I just wanna name that this is a model that, , comes from Hillary Jacobs.

He she's, she wrote a book called it's not always depression. It's a, it's a fantastic book. And, , and a really elegant, simple model that I think is friendly, user friendly for a lot of folks. The, the core emotions that can be overwhelming that she named. So, , if you think of the movie, , oh, it's escaping me now.

What's the movie with the, each character plays an emotion. It's a

[00:12:21] Noah: part. Oh, oh, inside out, 

[00:12:23] Dave: out. Yeah. Yeah.

You could think of those, those characters, but the, the core emotions.

Hillary Jacobs Hendel talks about our sadness, anger, disgusted, fear, joy, excitement, and sexual excitement. So seven emotions, and she calls 'em core because they, they just happen.

Right. They're not sort of like they're, they're sort of like natural emotions that arise. And they play a real function. You know, you think of anger, like it sort of can Mo

motivate us into action, you know, or, or fear motivates us to run away like their, their functional emotions, but they can become really overwhelming as a child.

And the intelligent thing to do when being flooded with emotion is to inhibit that a little bit, right. Is to. Like protect ourselves from being overwhelmed. Right. So things get too fill in the blank, you know, get too intense around anger. And it makes sense to try to protect oneself from that, especially as a little kid.

And then what happens as adults. If, if we had that experience as a kid, right? Anger starts to arise in relationship. Alarm bells go off from childhood that say, uhoh, anger's coming up better to feel anxious right now, or better to feel guilty that I'm angry than it is to allow anger because it was not good as a kid.

Right. 

[00:14:17] Noah: What, I'm hearing in that, um, Is also this piece around. And again, this wasn't the, the path we are planning on going down right now. But , if children are supported in feeling and moving through their feelings, then maybe they don't get as overwhelmed. Um,

So, 

[00:14:51] Dave: yeah.

[00:14:52] Noah: Which would maybe mean that they don't need those protection mechanisms in as many situations or,

[00:15:00] Dave: yeah. Yeah. It could be, I think, yeah, that sort of starts to touch on, you know, how much do we as parents impact these. Inhibitory emotions both positively and negatively. Like how much can we support our kids to feel fully and, um, how much is, you know, how much of those, that protection is a natural process of, of being human and, and growing.

Like it, it just, it just is a way. It's nature's way. And then at a certain point, there becomes a tipping point or, or, or diminished returns where it might be worth working through that though. The echoes of the past, you know, like my childhood is playing out in my relationship today.

And so, yeah, maybe I wanna it's, uh, outdated a little bit. Right. But this way, in which we can support our kids in feeling. Big emotions and the ways we inadvertently, 

give rise to those inhibitory emotions. So, yeah. Just want to give a quick example, cuz it's really subtle. It's really, I call it unconscious, you know, it's an unconscious parenting move for me much of the time. And it's insidious, you know, but like yesterday was, Rai's birthday and it's a big day.

It's a big, big day. Y'all like birthdays are big, big emotions and AA is. You know, she's two years younger and it's a big deal for the younger child that everything's, you know, equal. And if he gets something, she gets something. If he gets attention, she gets attention. Like she's big on equality as she should be.

And so birthdays are hard for younger siblings.

And it's like, oh, he is getting another gift, you know? And, oh, he is getting everyone saying happy birthday to him. And, and so she was, was having a hard time and she would sort of lash out at points. And I just watched myself my move.

My unconscious move is, is a look. I give her this look, that's like, you better stop. All that is said in the eyes. Right. And it's a look of disappointment. It's a look of, um,

maybe yeah, maybe disgusted.

[00:17:46] Noah: mm-hmm

[00:17:47] Dave: I hate to say that, but maybe that's true. And the impact on a small child, seven year old seeing dad who is all important, you know, big figure with that look, I mean, what do you think the impact is on that? You know, there's, there's a feeling of shame that arises, right.

That's too much to handle, you know, the. Thought that I'm disappointing. Dad is either too much sadness, too much fear. Right? The fear of losing dad's love is too much. Mm-hmm and so shame Wells up right now. I'm very aware of this. I'm talking to you about it. I'm, you know? Right. But I still do it right.

It's and I think we all do it. And so I'm just wanting to name,

[00:18:44] Noah: guilty about doing

[00:18:44] Dave: it, and then we feel guilty. It's a cycle. Yeah. And so what's the move, right? What is the, how do we work with that? 

[00:18:54] Noah: Mm-hmm , 

[00:18:55] Dave: you know? 

[00:18:55] Noah: Yeah.

I mean the, the first thing that pops into my mind, well, there's a few things first. I want to, I wanna kind of name that, like the mechanism of shame, right? It's it's sort of us telling our.

[00:19:10] Dave: of

[00:19:11] Noah: if I do this, I, this behavior risks being sort of expelled from the community, right. It's it's trying

[00:19:20] Dave: to,

[00:19:21] Noah: it's trying to protect us from doing things that might get us kicked out, right?

survival. and so, so that's powerful and that is serving a purpose, right? Because if we actually genuinely do live in a family system or a community where, um, where there are behaviors that, that could get us expelled from that community or, or family, then that's, that's a real, um, important thing that until we are in a. Community a, a group of people that is going to accept us unconditionally and forgive us for being human and making mistakes. Um, then we need to really put a KIBO on, on certain things. Right. But the other thing that comes to mind, I guess, in, in hearing what you just shared is, is the, like the repair and the, the apology, right.

You're and I. We're sort of talking more about the parent child relationship than the actual dad guilt itself, but

yeah We'll

get there.

[00:20:32] Dave: Yeah, absolutely. So you and I have talked about this before on the podcast and we talk about it a lot, but these three opportunities that arise in relationship before, during, after, and this is the, the after, right?

So the, the, what happens after is it shame and guilt is something that arises after something that happens. And so the move seems to. The interpersonal move is like, yeah. Apologizing seems to be really powerful. Right. And we've you and I have talked about this example before the difference, you know, two, two different apologies.

So I give AYA that look,

or let's say I snap at her. Right. I yell, I do that sometimes.

[00:21:27] Noah: yeah, we all do.

[00:21:29] Dave: And then I, and then I feel bad about it. I feel guilty sometimes I even feel shame, right? Like I'm a bad dad because I yell.

So.

let's say I yell and yeah. So, so I can think of, of, of a time where it wasn't just a look. It was, you know, I.

I caught her. Um, I saw her in the rear view mirror writing with marker on the car and I, and I went zero to 60. , uh, pretty quick. And I, and I yelled and, and I felt bad right away. Like I felt like, I mean, I know that that serves no purpose. Expressing anger is very useful. But expressing anger at a seven year old

for doing something like riding on the car.

I don't see as very functional mm-hmm right. And I see it. I see this pattern happening where the shame rising up and then what shame, shame causes more behavioral issues. Right? Mm-hmm so, so I. When we parked the car, we were at a restaurant. I just went back in the backseat and I had to cool off first, cuz my instinct, what I wanted to say was, you know, I'm sorry I yelled, but you can't write on the car.

We've talked about this a million times. You can write on paper, you can't write on the car, you can't write on your arm. You know? And I knew that wasn't what I wanted to do.

[00:23:20] Noah: Uhhuh,

[00:23:21] Dave: because that message is I'm sorry, I yelled, but you deserved it

[00:23:29] Noah: Uhhuh.

[00:23:30] Dave: I'm sorry. I yelled, but I yelled because of what you 

[00:23:34] Noah: right And it's, it's keeping the responsibility and, or, and it's blaming the child essentially.

[00:23:41] Dave: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You deserved your actions deserved.

[00:23:50] Noah: Like I wouldn't have had to yell if you hadn't driven, written on the car. So I'm sorry I yelled, but it's your fault that I yelled.

[00:23:56] Dave: Yeah. It's not really an apology.

No, it's a veiled, uh,

veiled,

shaming,

[00:24:04] Noah: Reinforcement of the original message. 

[00:24:08] Dave: So after I cooled down a little meaning, I worked with my own. Anxiety. I had to, I had to calm my 

[00:24:18] Noah: how did you do that self

[00:24:19] Dave: soothe. Well, I had to take a little space, meaning I stood outside of the car for a minute and I breathed and I, you know, I can feel my nervous system amped.

And if I place my attention on that feeling and hold it there. It, it starts to relax. If I allow myself to go into like justifying my actions or feeling bad about my actions or defending against my actions, it gets amped.

But if I just allow myself to be present with the physical sensations and feeling it starts to relax.

[00:25:09] Noah: Hmm.

[00:25:09] Dave: And I always have this mantra. I say this all the time. I've said it to you a lot. Like I say to myself, would I rather be right? Or would I rather be connected?

that's one of our principles principles,

because

the desire to be right. Meaning, uh, to defend my yelling is strong. It's like, if I can defend.

And make it not wrong for lack of a better word, then I won't feel so bad. That's sort of, the impulse never works out that way.

And it distracts me from being present with this inhibitory emotion of anxiety and guilt.

[00:25:56] Noah: right. , yeah,

[00:25:58] Dave: yeah. The guilt,

[00:25:59] Noah: what's a defense mechanism like being right. Defends you like keeps you safe from having to feel guilt or sh you know, or shame or the anxiety, 

[00:26:10] Dave: anxiety Yeah 

[00:26:11] Noah: which is ultimately like also defending you from just feeling sad that you acted out in a way that had a negative impact on somebody who you really love.

[00:26:25] Dave: Yeah. You mean me really

[00:26:31] Noah: I'm glad

[00:26:31] Dave: I mean,

[00:26:32] Noah: love going. And I, and we definitely needed some comic relief. So,

[00:26:36] Dave: but I love this metaphor of like, you know, shouting at someone is sort of like holding a hot piece of cold to throw at them.

[00:26:45] Noah: it. Mm-hmm

[00:26:45] Dave: mm-hmm , it's just as harmful to me. Mm-hmm , you know, if I'm honest, like it doesn't do me any good, you know, shouting into the air or shouting, you know, when I'm driving by myself or shouting in the woods is so cathartic, but shouting at someone, it doesn't feel good to me, you know?

And so instead of. Sweetie. I'm sorry I yelled, but you can't do that. I calmed myself down and I said, sweetie, I'm so sorry. I yelled

period. and the difference there, right? Like that's it. You're not wrong for your behavior. 

[00:27:42] Noah: your 

[00:27:43] Dave: you're not a bad person

[00:27:45] Noah: mm-hmm

[00:27:46] Dave: because you did something wrong. I'm not a bad person cuz I did something wrong. I'm just sorry about

[00:27:55] Noah: it.

[00:27:57] Dave: you know, so the hope sort of is that there's a repair. Reconnection, when I say repair, I mean there's a reconnection.

And the other is like a modeling sort of subtle modeling of when we do something we regret, we say, we're sorry, and we don't try to defend it. You know?

[00:28:22] Noah: don't try. So here's, um, this is, I mean, I'm getting like emotional, just figuring out how to pose the, the share question. Right. But, um, I have found myself at times in periods where I'm operating a high level of stress,

and I F fairly frequently losing my temper. So yell, apologize, yell, apologized.

And I, so I'm really so, so I think actually to, to some conversations we've had a few years ago, you know, about this specifically, I've gotten good at like cutting out the butt. I'm sorry. I yelled. I lost my temper. I'm working on it. I'm trying not to yell as

[00:29:20] Dave: much.

[00:29:22] Noah: And I, and I've, I've caught myself getting into like a, like a meta shame spiral, like almost feeling like the, you know, the abuser who, who just keeps apologizing over and over, like, you know, the, the archetype or image that comes to mind as like an alcoholic who like, you know, Goes on a binge and then does all this stuff and then still gets sober and then apologizes.

And then, you know, whether it's days later or weeks later, you know, it all happens again. And, um, and I'm curious, you know, like this is like, you know, we're live here, but you like, I, I, that is a piece, like I said, it's like this meta shame, guilt of like actually watching the pattern.

Often,, I see my coach or I get an acupuncture treatment and like that does something for my system as a whole.

And then I see myself come out of that pattern. Right. And so it's not like, okay, this is happening forever. Like there is an actual. I am working to get better. And finally, I'm able to get whatever resource I need or whatever support I need to like step out of that level of, of stress and that cycle. So it, so when I can step even like, you know, higher into a, like a higher perspective, I can see that.

But like in that moment, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if that's a question or just like a sharing of yeah. What do you do with that?

[00:30:54] Dave: Yeah. Well, first of all, I love the like meta meta, meta, meta it's like that movie inception. Mm-hmm,

[00:30:59] Noah: mm-hmm

[00:31:00] Dave: like a dream within a dream within a dream of this it's 

[00:31:03] Noah: Yeah Yeah. 

[00:31:05] Dave: But I think what you're describing is the difference between feeling guilt and shame versus holding yourself accountable for your actions. right. Mm-hmm . And the question is that I hear you asking is how do you hold yourself accountable without feeling guilt and shame, or, or at least without feeling, uh,, a level of guilt and shame that's unhelpful, that's harmful.

So. For example, we've been talking about in the opportunities of before, during, and after we're saying, what can we do after we've made a mistake? And we're saying

apologizing is a good move.

[00:31:52] Noah: and.

[00:31:54] Dave: Forgiving is a good move. Forgiving the, the person that you're in conflict with forgiving yourself. And then you're saying, yeah, but what if I just keep doing that and keep doing that?

Part of the puzzle is after, but then you're also talking about going to see a coach going to see an acupuncturist, going to talk to a friend, taking care of yourself. Right. These are all before moves. Right, right.

[00:32:25] Noah: When they're ultimately get me out of the cycle, usually.

[00:32:28] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. They all three opportunities impact the cycle.

Right. And. It's not just what I do after though. That seems to be most neglected and the hardest move. I think for the men, I know probably the women I know to, you know, the adults that I know to forgive oneself, isn't really, you know, taught and practiced and reinforced. Guilt and shame sure are

[00:33:05] Noah: Mm-hmm

[00:33:06] Dave: they're rich, rich culture of guilt, chit and game guilt and shame in our, in our culture.

It's a, it's a go-to move. Yeah. You should not have done that. You messed up whose fault is it? Who should we blame? Like this is, yeah. That's where that's the go to,

[00:33:29] Noah: Well, yeah, you're gonna, I'm going, can jump off into a whole nother meta world, but

[00:33:34] Dave: Let's just finish this thought real quick, which is like, so we do something that we wish we hadn't done.

The, the instinct is how do I prevent that from happening again? The answer we generally come up with is if I'm hard enough on my myself, I won't do it again. Mm-hmm

[00:33:56] Noah: Mm-hmm

[00:33:57] Dave: turns out folks. That's a myth. Because when you're hard on others, you shame. If I shame my daughter, she's more likely to act up next time.

If I shame myself, I'm more likely to act up that pressure creates more of the same issue. Right? So the instinct is I made a mistake. I better beat myself up. What we're saying here is it might be more helpful. When you make a mistake to make amends with self and others. And then how do we do the before take care of ourselves and sort of work through the echoes of the past.

What came up in that moment that I can process through? I can journal through. I can talk through, I can, you know, I was triggered.

[00:34:56] Noah: right. That actually, so another way of saying what you're saying is, or what I'm hearing you say is that shame and guilt actually lock you into the cycle.

[00:35:13] Dave: that,

[00:35:14] Noah: Um, that when we feel shame about something, it actually increases the likelihood that we'll repeat that behavior because of this sort of pressure cooker situation. And because the shame inhibits us from actually being able to heal. What's leading to the behavior because it makes it untouchable. It acts as this protection mechanism, which acts as a guard for what's going on and causing this all to start from the beginning.

And I know we have to wrap things up here. , whenever this stuff comes up, parts work comes up right.

Some people might know it as internal family systems, but basically it's this idea that like, we, we think of ourselves, we experience ourselves for the most part as this like person.

You know, a unified hole, but ultimately there's all sorts of little, little parts of ourselves and big parts of ourselves that are operating, and sometimes they're kind of undercover and they pop up when something happens and sometimes,, they're whispering in our ear constantly and all those, you know, the voices in our heads.

Right. And, and when you, When you speak to the, the self forgiveness.

[00:36:33] Dave: yeah.

[00:36:33] Noah: when we talk about this healing, it it's being able to actually find that part of ourself that feels shame, which we can do without, just by feeling the shame without getting so fused, engulfed in the shame that we're, that we're just lost in that, like, if we.

This is again where journals help we're coaches, therapists, you know, help friends, right. That we can actually like, we ourselves end up holding space for this guilt, for this shame. And, and we just, we see it and we hear it and we love it.

And,

and that's really where all of a sudden. , that shame, the piece of you that feels shame around behavior X feels acceptance , and love and no longer has to fear making that mistake no longer has to feel shame around that behavior because it sees like, oh, you know, Big Noah has space for this little, little Noah part, right?

Yeah. and, and

yeah,

and that's where once the shame's gone, the baggage of that cycle of behavior kind of starts to dissipate.

[00:38:11] Dave: totally the, the behavior. So we talked about core emotions and we talked about inhibitory emotions

And

then the third piece of that triangle. What Hillary Jacobs Hendel calls defenses, but you might also call them behaviors, right?

That it's really anything we do to cope with feelings of shame, guilt, anxiety, or those overwhelming emotions, anything we do to sort of protect ourselves from that. Right. And so, so my seven year old daughter. Has behaviors that are coming from some emotions underneath my inner seven year old part that you're referring to also is having behaviors come up.

Right? So there's, there's a total parallel process us.

So it's really sometimes I feel like it's just like two, seven year olds going at it. You know, it's like my inner seven year old is duking it out with my, my actual seven year old. But the other, you know, you sort of said, shame locks us up and we need to be able to provide this support.

This caring, parental support to that inner seven year old in order to, so there isn't the need for the behaviors

[00:39:59] Noah: the mm-hmm to

come 

[00:40:00] Dave: from it. The other reason is that your brain can't really tell the difference between how you treat your kiddo and how you treat yourself.

so if your goal is, if my goal is to not scold my daughter.

[00:40:18] Noah: mm-hmm

[00:40:20] Dave: Then I ought to not scold myself. Right. If I want to be more effective with her and her behavior, I need to learn to be more effective with myself. Right. So it's the other reason that, you know, forgiveness, isn't some like luxury, self forgiveness. Self-compassion, isn't something like you.

Nice that we add.

It's, it's essential, To changing the behaviors we don't like in ourselves.

[00:40:56] Noah: I offer a little story?

Because this whole image is like coming into my

[00:41:01] Dave: my mind's eye and

[00:41:02] Noah: you know, there's this monster right in the dungeon of the castle and it's locked up in a cage. You know, that cage being shame and every now and then it hears something happening up on the, you know, in the castle, in the court that just like the awakens, the monster. And when it's awake, it's so powerful. It can break through the cage and it runs.

and

it just reeks havoc. And after it's reeked havoc,, all the guards, all the shame guards are able to like, get it back into the dungeon and lock it back in there and it can, and it collapses into its, its state. And then maybe the, you know, the court carers are able to sort of try to do their best to clean up the 

[00:42:00] Dave: Yeah. 

[00:42:02] Noah: Until one day,

right.

The king and the.

Come down, go down into the dungeon and they look at this monster that's, that's been locked away. Right. And, and they sit with it and they wonder. What, what gifts, this is a powerful being so powerful. It can crash through these metal, these metal barriers and, and so strong. And, and that it can reek all of that. Have it create all this destruction and they sit with curiosity and they sit with loving hearts, wondering like, what are the gifts? Of this being

[00:42:58] Dave: mm-hmm

[00:42:59] Noah: and this, this dark beast of a lumbering beast, kind of all of a sudden lifts its head, feeling this new kind of attention and feels itself shedding, these sort of murky layers. 

[00:43:23] Dave: Mm 

[00:43:25] Noah: And as it sort of sheds this, this old skin, it becomes this really beautiful, like powerful

creature and it's, and it's got these bright eyes and a big smile. Like I just want to help. And they, they open up that, that lock, right. They open up. This chamber

[00:43:55] Dave: risky

[00:43:58] Noah: and the creature no longer a 

[00:44:02] Dave: beast 

[00:44:02] Noah: steps out and they go up together. Right. And it sees the sun and it feels the sunlight and the wind and it smiles. And all of a sudden it's. It's there as a member of the community

And

when a tree falls over, it's there to move it out of the way.

And it becomes like a, uh, energy that, that contributing energy to, to the right. And, and maybe sometimes it falls out of does something by accident, cuz it's still like now learning how to be in helpful way. But if it makes a mistake. It doesn't get thrown into the dungeon.

[00:44:51] Dave: get yeah.

[00:44:53] Noah: it gets taught.

[00:44:54] Dave: Hmm.

[00:44:55] Noah: And over time it makes less and less mistakes and becomes this huge gift, right.

To everybody around it.

[00:45:05] Dave: yeah, the, the power wasn't the issue. It was the,

the inhibition, the KIBO mm-hmm the caging of the power, right. That was causing wreaking havoc.

[00:45:24] Noah: And it was, it was caged because it was sort of causing havoc, but that was because it didn't know how to, how to be.

[00:45:32] Dave: yeah, the paradox. Yeah. Love it.

[00:45:36] Noah: Mm.

[00:45:38] Dave: I think that's a good place for us to end for now with our, where we can chew on this story and let it, let it work us a bit.

But I, uh, I really appreciate this conversation

[00:45:54] Noah: too

[00:45:55] Dave: um, Yeah. I feel like a common theme with the dads that we work with is

really wanting.

to show up for our kids. And how do we do our best without allowing that effort to be better to.

Lock the monster in the basement, like how do we still strive to be our whole expressive selves without that inner scolding voice?

[00:46:43] Noah: Right. Yeah. And if, if that's a question that like really resonates, I just want, I just want to invite people listening to this podcast to, to reach out, right. Like we are here, like. Running the programs that we run and doing the coaching that we do with, with the dads out there that do reach out to help them, let those beasts out of the dungeon and, and teach them how to be in, in community in a healthy way.

And, um, yeah. And so, yeah, just, and, and please also. Feel free to share this podcast episode. If it's meaningful to a friend, just, you can text the episode to someone and say, Hey, this was, this was great. And you could, you could rate the podcast too. And, um, yeah, but we, yeah, we wanna be in relationship with more than just each other.

And, um, yeah. So thank you guys for, for taking the time out to, to listen to this and we're really. Really looking forward to being in connection and to continuing to, um, hopefully entertain a little bit here on the podcast. And, uh, um, please also feel free to say like, Hey guys, can you talk about X or like, you know, Why, or like, you know, I haven't had sex with my wife in three months, you know, is that something you guys want us to be talking about is, um, you know, I can't function because I'm so blurry eyed that I haven't had a good night's sleep in two months.

Is, is that an issue, like, do you want us to be bringing on guests to talk about certain particular topics? Like we're really open to feedback and suggestions and.

And appreciate you again, your time and listening. So hope you all have a, a great day.

[00:48:51] Dave: Be well.

[00:48:52] Noah: bye.