Fathering with Wonder - an Interview with Tim Hare

In this episode we interview Tim Hare, nature and adventure guide abou Left of Wonder, a community initiative to bring the wonder of nature to children and their parents. Check out Tim's upcoming Arete expedition for dads, a 4 day back pack trip up into the mountains and down into the soul.

Transcript (please note that transcript was done with AI and may include errors):

Tim Hare: Fathering with Wonder

[00:00:00] Noah: Hi and welcome to the council of father's podcast. We're here to talk about this wild journey we call fatherhood I'm Noah Goldstein. 

[00:00:09] Dave: I'm Dave bono.

[00:00:10] Noah: And today we're talking with Tim Hare. 

[00:00:13] Dave: Yeah noah. I am excited about this episode. We've been, we've been trying to get this going for for a little bit and, um, I'm just, I'm really excited to have Tim on the show today. , Tim among other things is, a dear friend, and I'm just so excited about what Tim is up to.

Tim is, a wilderness and adventure guide who has worked in outdoor and intercultural education for, for over 20 years.

, he's been guiding personal expeditions throughout, the us west, , Alaska, the Andes, Patagonia, Nepal, including mountaineering, , treks and trips, and, he leads people through, the natural world and through the internal world, of personal growth and among, , all his accolades.

he's up to this thing called left to wonder. And, he, , was with my kiddo today. He was with Rafi today, my, my 10 year old, , leading nine kids, I think today through, , hiking and, , preparing for an overnight, , Trek and just, uh, just awesome stuff he does with, with the kids up in, , some beautiful property and ward and, , , so much to say about Tim, , but just really grateful that you're here, Tim and I'm, I'm happy to, to have you on the episode and, and also can't wait to have you share, , this, , adventure that you're about to take some dad's on, so dad's listen up. 

[00:02:06] Tim: Thank you, Dave. Thank you. Yeah, that is, um, a lot of funded to hear. I, I appreciate that. And, I get that. I feel like I get to know your kids sometimes better than you with all the work we do, through wonder with the nature connection program.

So it's also good to share this time with, with both of you. 

[00:02:26] Dave: Yeah, if you could just kick us off a little bit with sort of, you know, what you're up to these days, , I know, you've had some big transitions and you've had some big adventures lately, but what are you, what are you 

[00:02:39] Tim: up to? Yeah, gosh. , well the majority,, of my focus right now and what I'm, what I'm working on is that, , nature, connection work is really working with, you know, with kiddos and with adults to try to heal a bit, , our fractured relationship with the earth and, and with ourselves and with each other.

So the wonder nature, connection programs built out of that. , and this Ette expedition that we'll talk about is also built out of that. I, , have the privilege of, of stewarding, uh, land near ward, Colorado, a piece of five acre, kind of mid altitude land, , that my partner and my kiddos, another just dear friends and, and community,, are stewarding.

So this summer we've kind of been up there working on rebuilding a shed and renovating an Airstream and running these nature connection programs. , and so, yeah, it's been, been such a gift, uh, my bit. You know of my, my history that brought me there is I I've been working in experience education for, , many, many years, 20 plus years, , sort of evolved from conservation studies to outward bound, you know, outdoor guiding work.

, and then a lot of my life's kind of been, I feel a bit like a jellyfish, just like not really planning much and sort of at the whim of the tides. And, , but instead of like the tides, I think my anchor has really been mountain. So, uh, most major events and decisions in my life have just been guided by, , kind of proximity to mountains.

, , my partner and I were both, uh, you know, by the statistics unemployed for the last couple of years since the pandemic. And so we're, we're on a pretty significant path to decondition and, , change our lifestyle and, , kind of step outside of the status quo, homeschooling our kiddos and. Yeah, just kind of peeling back those layers of like pattern behavior.

, I think we sort of joke that we don't really have a good sense of where we're going, but we know like where we don't wanna go and we know sort of what we're leaving behind and kind of chiseling away sort of like a statue. , we're just like a compass bearing. So it's, uh, yeah, a lot of uncertainty and a big adventure as a family, but it's exhilarating.

, yeah, so that, that's where we're at right now, 

[00:04:51] Noah: Tim, I feel like, , not to like idealize your, your life or anything like that, but, , I feel like you're, you're, you're living the life. Like, I would've lived under other circumstances. Um I remember back in my twenties when I, I, , was thinking about outdoor education, it's like a career path.

And, , I remember just thinking like, All the adventure stuff. And like, I was like, how am I gonna raise a family like that? And rather than figure it out like you are doing, I sort of chose to take a more conventional, um, I don't know, argue of me more 

[00:05:27] Tim: conventional, maybe not, but like, yeah, just it's all relative.

[00:05:31] Noah: Yeah. Um, so that's, 

[00:05:34] Tim: It's, it's all we know how to do really. So it's kind of, it's like kind of, easy in the way that it flows for us. It'd be hard to, you know, when we tried to do a salaried sort of, um, you know, ordinary Boulder lifestyle, it, it often felt very uncomfortable to us.

So this is like actually a little bit more back in our comfort zone. Mm 

[00:05:55] Dave: mm-hmm yeah. Well, yeah, you say comfort zone, but to me in my language, it seems like you're, you're more aligned, you know, with what feels right and true for you. Yeah. Um, and there's a certain like attunement to, , what's. Right. You know, and I, and I guess you, yeah, you're describing that as, as comfort, but it, it, uh, I, I happen to know you've had to face a lot of discomfort to, to live the life that you're choosing too.

And I love how you're talking about, like, you know, it's, it's, there's this way in which your, your work, , , as a guide and your, , your, , role as a father or as a part of your family is really that that line is really getting closer and closer. Mm-hmm , uh, it seems that your, your work and your family life are.

Getting closer 

[00:06:51] Tim: together. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for that reflection. I think that's so true. I feel like, , before the pandemic, when we were, , laid off from really amazing work, it gave us really a lot of good kind of soul vocational type of work working with an international experiential education program.

So much of our life was just like logistical setting up how our family could, you know, manage each other and move around each other. And, , and that feels like pretty normal for, , a lot of folks. , and since then we're, , gosh, we're like no more than, , four feet from each other when we sleep oftentimes in our little trailer or, , you know, our kiddo, we're able to get to know them and when they want to participate in the programs they're with us, , along with the gift of so many other kiddos in the community.

, so it's. , that alignment of, , vocation with family . With community as well. That's one of the things that I think we always struggled with like modern definition of work was the ways in which it, , alienated us from those core functions of home and family and, , , and things like that.

Yeah, , it's, it's not always easy, but, you know, for the kiddos or Fresno , as partners, , but being able to work through that in a really neat way, that is really timeless. I mean, that's how humans live most of their lives. Right. Mm-hmm, really deeply integrated with one another.

Um, that's, that's something that we're trying to hold onto and, and figure out because it's not, it's, it's definitely not that easy in, , in the modern world with, , most money being made outside of the home and kind of in a fairly, , abstract way, 

[00:08:25] Dave: yeah. Well, one of the things that's clear that, that you're getting closer to, as you remove some of the distractions is this thing that you call wonder, , and that I think Noah and I like to talk a lot about with dads, as well as, as sort of , a necessity for child development, you know, mm-hmm, that, that wonder is essential.

So I wonder if you could tell us, like, you know, how did, where did wonder come from? Where, where did this name come from and, and, um, and tell us a little bit about the 

[00:09:02] Tim: programs. Yeah, , what's really fun about that too, is , , you know, I'm a follower and love the, , the work that you all are doing and how.

Deeply you engage with, , you know, conversations around fatherhood. You're just so skilled with this,, both of you and when listening to the soul centric, parenting episode, um, I think the most recent one or two back, you know, Noah, , used that word wonder as well as a way that, , soul can kind of emerge into our world.

, and that's really what, we're, what we're aiming at. We, Shannon, my partner and I have lots of conversations about wonder, and it's such a, such a funny, , it can almost be trivialized in the modern world, like, oh, wonder it's like so childlike , but it's actually one of the most core, , essential states of being for.

Allowing deeper, , experiences to move into our world and for allowing us to, to tap into kind of that deeper well of wisdom and, um, and our soul calling. So, so wonder is, in a lot of ways we're aiming at, but we're also aiming at the kind of childlike state of wonder like, oh, this is , you know, playful and fun and joyful.

And, , the, , history of it though, which you can, you know, read about a little bit on our website is that when we, , Purchased the land that we currently steward, , six years ago, there was a wonder bread sign on the land, like an old metal wonder bread sign that was rusted out on the sides.

And like the most, , sterile, modern kind of creation wonder bread um, and it was from that sign that we actually hammered out the metal and framed it out and it became it's this like reappropriation of, of the word that, , that we, that we were able to do in the sign, you know, it said, , wonder enriched bread, build strong bodies in seven ways.

And so we changed it to say , wonder enriched land, build strong, strong bodies in seven ways and had that kind of as our, um, you know, sign entering into the land onto the land. And that's what gave us the, the word actually we St that's what kind of., brought us into just conversations about like, oh, maybe wonder is it maybe that's like really the core thing that we're trying to do.

You know? I, I love that for adults and kids. taking it back. 

[00:11:05] Dave: We're taking back 

[00:11:06] Tim: wonder . Yeah, exactly. All right. It's like, oh, it's not just like, wow, can you believe that humans have made this food? It's not really even food. Oh my God. It's like a core state of need that. 

[00:11:17] Noah: Yeah. And that, that's what they chose 

[00:11:18] Tim: to call it of all things.

Yeah. Wonder like, wow. Can you believe it? 

[00:11:22] Dave: right. The wonder of processing. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm picturing you coming down this afternoon with those mushrooms in your it's, like, that's like the 

[00:11:34] Tim: opposite of wonderful. totally, definitely. Can't be created in the lab. Nope. Only, only emerges through like fire and soil conditions at the right moment for, you know, mushrooms to pop out.

Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:11:49] Dave: Yeah, so cool. So yeah, 

[00:11:51] Noah: go ahead. I wonder, I mean, I just, it, it points to something that's kind of an innate quality for children. Mm-hmm , but that a lot of the containers and structures of modern culture and society don't don't allow for, or don't encourage, or, you know, almost, , minimize.

And so, , it's really beautiful, to hear about a program and, you know, Hazel got to go to, to one week of the camp this summer, too, that, , that is like creating the space for that to emerge for the kids. Yeah. , and then, and encouraging it. And, and of course that it's, you know, that nature is a part of that.

It just seems so 

[00:12:35] Tim: natural. . Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And it was, uh, gosh, getting to know Hazel. That was my first kind of like extended time with her as well. And she's amazing. She's amazing. And she's so connected. She has that, you know, she absolutely has that. , which, , obviously goes to how you all as a family live and, , parent and yeah, , I think our aim in, in a lot , our curriculum development is to create space , one of our most inspiring mentors who we'd love to work with, at some point, we've just read his books and heard his talks is John Young, , who runs the wilderness awareness school and, or used to, and has, , other projects mostly with like bird language and, and other, , currently deeper kind of nature connection and culture change work.

Their, their approach to planning was to plan a week or plan a day, or plan a workshop and eliminate 50% of what they planned. Just like. Like take themselves out of the way and allow that spontaneous space that it really, you know, is what makes it makes a difference between a sort of magic and wonder filled space from it.

It distinguishes that from a, a class or something that you just kind of move through, , a bit more mindlessly. So yeah, we, we, we're inspired by that. And, , the more we kind of get out of the way and let kids be in a wild place, , it, it allows that wonder to really emerge.

Um, so that's a big part of our pedagogy as well. When that, 

[00:13:59] Noah: I mean, you used the word emerge right there. Mm-hmm, that's one of the principles of, of emergent strategy. Mm-hmm plan, less planning, more presence, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm, , you know, and, and Dave, and I can speak to how many times we've sat and a council with fathers with the whole plan of what we're gonna do that evening.

And then , rather than stick to the plan, you know, we just follow the magic and yeah. And it's it. 

[00:14:24] Tim: Yeah, definitely. And it's good to have a plan and to, you know, have definitely to do the preparation work and, , keep that really open, , , spacious, spontaneous type of, uh, possibility to, you know, to see what comes up when given the, the chance.

[00:14:43] Dave: Totally. That's how music happens, right? , , you watch someone like, , Charlie Parker or, or Jimmy Hendrix and, , it looks like , it's all spontaneous. It's all improv, but they know their scales inside and out. And , so there's a structure within that structure emerges creativity.

Mm-hmm and , it seems like that's, that's what happens up on the land. I mean, I'm remembering, , just walking with the kids and, and your kids on the land and, , you and Shannon are always, , walking with wonder, , mm-hmm, like, you know, No.

It's to see Tim see a mushroom is like, , it's so exciting, you know? Oh, check it out. You, and 

[00:15:31] Tim: yeah, partly cuz I'm such a novice as well, but , you know, which is great. I keep the, , beginner's beginner's mind, you know, totally children's eyes. Yeah. But 

[00:15:39] Dave: that like vicarious reinforcement, right. For the mirroring that's happening, the modeling like that, that when my children see you get excited about something in nature mm-hmm , it, it yeah.

Impacts them, you know, they, they learn it right away and mm-hmm um, they come down, they come down the mountain different than they go up. , there's, there's something transformative happening. 

[00:16:06] Tim: Yeah. It works. And it 

[00:16:08] Noah: sounds like, , , there's an authenticity there, right?

Like kids can, can smell pretending to be mm-hmm excited about mushrooms from a mile away. Mm-hmm um, and so I'm curious, like what, what do you think has supported you in cultivating that quality of wonder that openness, the curiosity and, or, or, or, you know, maybe it's not something you cultivated, maybe something you never lost from childhood and because of how you grew up or yeah.

What, where does that come from for you? 

[00:16:40] Tim: Yeah, that's like most things related to ourselves, such a hard thing to pin down. , first I would say , I do see myself as such a novice in so many things. , or maybe as more of an amateur, you know, in the way of the root of the word as, , a lover of, of a certain thing.

And I think, , that at least , , with some of this work. It is a practice for me because it's not necessarily my innate tendency. I think my partner Shannon is much better with slowing down and creating space to wander, , which again, no, I really appreciated you mentioning wandering in the, um, soul centric parenting as a, you know, practice as opposed to hiking.

I'm, I'm generally much more of a hiking oriented person with a destination or a certain objective. Uh, so she's really helped me, , learn how to wander, how to move without, , a certain objective. And, and that is just such. Good medicine for kids and for adults as well, but kids that's like, that's how they want to move in the natural world.

Many kids don't necessarily want a destination. They just want to, , wander wherever their curiosity takes them. And so for me, I think that's, that's a more recent practice, I would say in terms of how I move through the natural world. And I really appreciate that.

It's a, it's a huge gift that Shannon's given me. , but kind of the deeper part of that question I would say is I have such a, an aversion to, , I guess like complacency. I, I really like, , challenging myself and trying new things. And that's something I've really struggled with as a father as well, because I think sometimes for me, my fatherhood gives us a, oh, I don't know, an excuse or a reason to be, , become more patterned creatures, you know, routine and structure and things like that.

And I, I just have this like core belief , That that , slows us down and, um, makes life less interesting. Makes years go by, makes us take shortcuts and make mistakes as you know, um, ecological creatures. And so I think drawing from how animals move or how humans have lived over the years, allowing for a more spontaneous approach each day is, is, is what I really aim for.

And I, yeah, again, I think I have a bit of an aversion or like a, an allergy to, to routine and pattern behavior, which look at the state we're in, this is, this is where, you know, I think it's something Shannon and I kind of share and , um, we're not necessarily given to like, um, yeah. To, to each day feeling the same.

Uh, so I think that helps with the wonder, like seeing possibility with each day and each new, , path we could take or decisions we could make with each day. That's like an aspect of wonder, I suppose. Beautiful. 

[00:19:23] Dave: Yeah, I love it. Thank you. I wonder if you could, uh, just describe the land a little bit, like, oh yeah.

What's it like up there and then yeah. What would, what do you do up there with programs? 

[00:19:39] Tim: Yeah. You know, one of the cool things about the land that sort of sits between Boulder and lions and the, you know, front range of Colorado and the high peaks is that it's, , somewhat of a forgotten zone.

It's not a place that people hang out too much or go hike or, you know, so we're at 8,500 feet. It's kind of like a. Middle Ponderosa Douglas fir type of ecosystem, , with two big Meadows. So it has a bunch of edges which create a lot of ecological and biological diversity. And, , it's fairly flat, which is nice because left hand canyon in particular, where we are is a very rugged, steep canyon.

And so the fact that we have two, , relatively flat Meadows is, uh, is a huge gift in that, in that terrain. , and so we get to spend time yeah. In an area where I think, , it's not usually seen as like a recreation place. It's not usually, um, you know, when people come from Boulder, they usually go up to the high peaks in Rocky mountain national park, or, you know, the Indian peaks.

And it allows us to see these, this like transitional zone where a lot of migration happens on the margins of the season, birds migrate up and down elk there's, you know, elk and moose pathways that run through the land. So in that way, it's a, it's like just. So vibrant , and we, and we get to just kind of post up there, , watching it happen as the season's gone.

Oh, the land was burned two years ago. And the left hand canyon fire was kind of ground zero for that fire, which has been, uh, uh, complex process of grieving of, , sadness at times, anger it's clear that it was human started, but also this, , this ability to observe a unique period of time where there's magical things happening, ecologically that might not happen again.

And, you know, in our time on that land, um, the ways that fire enhances biodiversity and creates species that wouldn't be there, otherwise mushrooms and birds, like the mountain Bluebird, these, you know, vibrant blue birds are there for this. Short period of time, just, , living in this post-fire ecosystem.

And so we get to witness that we get to witness the new growth on the wildflowers. And the, one of the things that is such a powerful part of wonder is that , the kids get to see it year in, you know, year after year, and as they grow the land grows and changes. And so a lot of the, the kiddos with wonder in the last few years have been able to see it go from pre-fire to pretty intense fire and then witnessing this succession, , and a lot of them are getting into their, , double digit years they're they're changing and their relationship with the land is changing.

And so that's, that's one of the things that's super exciting to, to look forward to, as , as our crew of kiddos grows, grows older and the land continues to change as well. 

[00:22:34] Dave: It's 

[00:22:35] Noah: it's really, I mean, one thing I'm, I'm hearing as a theme in there is this sort of, um, Well, the, the idea of like in between right.

This land is sort of like in between the, the, the low ends and the Highlands mm-hmm , and that it's sort of in between being burnt and being fully absolutely it's peak and it's, and also there's these different areas of it that you spoke to the ecological diversity that's created by Meadows and, and, you know, forestries areas.

Yeah. Yeah. I actually haven't been there yet, so excited to get to yeah. To make it up there. And, , 

[00:23:13] Tim: The time is, is near mm-hmm . 

[00:23:15] Noah: Yeah,, yeah, and also like the wonder camp that's happening in the summer. Which is sort of this time that's in between the rest of the year in this way, it's like, mm-hmm, , you know, you finish grade X and then you're in between the two grades and then you kind of go into grade Y and yeah, yeah.

Just, um, just the way that is all holding. Yeah. Holding that. 

[00:23:38] Tim: , it's pretty cool. I love that. I, I actually have not thought about it in that way as this, like, I mean, in some ways. You know, a transitional space, a liminal space. Mm-hmm it's yeah, that, that's it. That's where we are. yeah. Fully, you know, fully dove into the liminal space on this land, which is perfect.

And it's its own space as well. You know, it's not just a passage through, but it, but it is. There's a lot of aspects of that that is very transitional. And historically humans have not lived there year round that, to my knowledge, , is like a summer place for a lot of, you know, planes communities.

, and you see that when you're up there in the winter, it's actually like pretty harsh, harsh place to live, but, , a lot of people do it. And, uh, yeah. So, so it is that kind of transitional, maybe not meant to be permanent, kind of, , feel up there. Mm. Which is kind of everything in general, right.

That's life and ecology and. 

[00:24:37] Noah: Totally. Yeah. Right. Everything's constantly changing. Yeah. And maybe this is a good point for us to transition, to learn about some of the other work that, that you're doing 

[00:24:48] Tim: . Yeah. So I think, for me working with. The age group that we're working with currently with wonder has been, , real, makes a lot of sense. And it's been seamless with my own journey as a dad, I have an eight and a 10 year old, and we've been able to , you know, at times that there's like a bit of a challenge, like, okay, are we running programs for our kids' ages?

And as they get older or are we trying to be like, okay, like these are the programs we run and we can bring in new kiddos, cuz we're, we're most interested in some ways in like participating in and following our own kids' journey as they get older. But we, we want it to be accessible and, you know, diverse enough, uh, audience to be able to just like run quality nature connection programs for kiddos.

So we we're trying to keep that in check and it's uh, most of my work historically has been with young adults and with adults. , and so the erect expedition that I've, uh, currently been working with takes place in September, , it's a four day. Mountain expedition for fathers and really kind of connects with, or merges a lot of my core interests and abilities, which is a merger of mountain guiding outdoor education facilitation work, and my current interest, which is really just only doing things that bring us in deep into deeper connection with ourselves, heal our relationship with the earth and deep in connection with one another as well.

So I think that the, a red expedition is, you know, something that a lot of dads, I mean, I know a lot of people just feel, you know, feel similar to lead to, to me and a and feeling that our, our world's quite disconnected. Uh, I'm, we're really saddened by and angered by outrage by ecological deterioration , concerned about climate change for ourselves and for our children. And we wanna just have those conversations and not, not shy away from them, um, and engage them, you know, in a space that allows us to actually, you know, transform those feelings into something that can, um, revitalize and motivate us in our lives.

A lot of the work that I, I guess I'm referencing, even in my language, goes back to Joanna Macy's work in the work that reconnects, which involves a spiral from, , coming from place of gratitude as the first step to acknowledging our pain for the world. And that's something that for me, I would say, uh, participating in, in workshops, in the work that reconnects reading Joan Macy's books, if they've helped me sit in that space of grief and sadness in a way that I'm not is not, , Comfortable or innate in my, you know, in my being.

And, and so I'm learning how to, how to do that, but I really appreciate it because it allows us to, , not skim the surface and really go, go deeper. And I think when we really sit with it, you know, that feeling is, should be quite universal for anyone that's paying attention. Uh, so feeling our grief for the world or feeling our pain for the world and then seeing with new eyes and the new eyes are, , concepts such as eco centrism, such as, , you know, alternative kind of community structures that we can develop and things like that, and then going forth.

So coming back in returning to our ordinary lives. So it's a journey in a, in a bit of a, a hesitate to use the vision quest word, because I'm not necessarily vision quest guide in that way. , but it is, uh, you know, a retreat and, uh, deep soul and ecocentric journey for fathers. , And that's the work that I wanna do, you know, and that's, that's, that's what Shannon and I are committed to right now.

[00:28:34] Dave: Beautiful. So beautiful. September 15 to 18. 

[00:28:39] Tim: Yeah. yeah. Put it on the calendar. Uh, it's exciting. You know, and I think I, it's something I do in my own life. I, , spend time in the mountains with good people and that's, you know, oftentimes rock climbing and, , doing, um, somewhat, , somewhat big or sometimes silly adventures.

And I, I just wanna do that with other, with other dads for this. And, and it's hard to do. It's hard to find the time. I mean, it's hard to feel comfortable or confident or feel like, you know, on a very basic logistical level, feel like you can do it without, , putting someone else out. So I, so I really hope that this journey makes it easy for dads that would be interested to, , to be able to do that for themselves and , , through themselves for their family and for their community and their, , and their work.

[00:29:23] Noah: It sounds, I mean, so beautiful. And I honestly, the only thing currently holding me back from, from being there is that my, my four year old is turning five on the 19th. And so it's like the weekend before his birthday, which might be when we end up celebrating his birthday. So , I'm still trying to, to, to work out those details, it'll 

[00:29:43] Tim: be an honor to have you Noah.

[00:29:44] Noah: Yeah. Thank you. It will be, it will be delight. It would be delight to be there. And, I think it's such a huge gift, , this opportunity that, you're creating. I'm in this men's group and, , We, we try to go on a backpacking trip every year and it doesn't ha doesn't happen every year, but, , many years it has happened and there was one year in particular, , it was our first year with two kids.

So Zephyr was like maybe eight months old. And I was leaving Rachel for a few days, by yourself with the two kids mm-hmm and she was really encouraging and wanted me to go. And, but it was like, , is this, is this gonna be okay? And, and I came back and first of all, she was like, it was okay.

It was fine. Like, I can handle the two kids for a few days by myself. That's part of being in a partnership and, and parenting is giving each other these opportunities. Yeah. But , I was glowing. I was , Radiating mm-hmm with, with my own presence and reconnection with myself. Mm-hmm and, and, and that in a way was like the gift to her and to the family.

, and the only reason I'm sharing this is cause I can, , think of dads out there who might be thinking, ah, how can I, can I ask my partner to, watch the kids for that long mm-hmm ? Or like, . I haven't left, , my family for that many days or that many nights or, and, um, yeah.

And. I think it's so important , for a family to, make certain decisions, make sacrifices for each other as partners. Yeah. Um, and. I hope it's okay. That I'm saying all of this, but it just felt important to, to 

[00:31:32] Tim: say yeah, absolutely. 

[00:31:34] Dave: Yeah. Yeah. , I think , there's these layers that are so important, one of them is, , investing in, , in yourself as a, as a father.

So yeah, stepping out of the structure and routine , the sort of habitual ways in which we are reflexive in our everyday, you know, Groundhog day. So. One layer is just disrupting that, right. Another layer is asking for what's needed, , like,

It's either asking for what we need , or having, the build up, come out sideways . And then, then there's the, the impact that, retreat has meaning when I say retreat, I mean, uh, removing ourselves from the daily stimuli that we're accustomed to. , and then there's the impact that the natural world has. 

, so yeah, I'm just really glad you're saying that Noah, because that's, this, it seems to be a real theme in council of fathers is dad's saying, , I'd love to, but I, you know, I can't, I can't ask for that . 

[00:32:47] Tim: Yeah, that's real.

And I, I mean, I know mothers partners feel that even stronger,, in a lot of ways, , from, from my experience or from what I witness, , and it's, it's, I think fairly a, a fairly shared, uh, I don't know, second guessing constriction, like how, how can I do this? , and, and I would say that , , like at any, at any stage in life or any, , any role that, you know, we find ourselves in being able to leave it and being able to get distance from it when the time is right.

You know, because sometimes the time's not right, , but when the time is right is so essential and, , it makes us come back to that, you know, by leaving home, we know home better by leaving a certain routine. It allows us to. Find new ways , to break patterns, to be more vital, to, to show up with more presence.

And so yeah, when the time is right, , these kinds of things I think are fairly timeless , and , so healthy. , one corollary that I was thinking of , , as I was planning this expedition as well as we were recently this past, , winter in Guatemala, in a village on lake Oland. And , one of the families that we became good friends with the father, Don Luise, who,, his kids are in their teens now, , one day I, I saw him and he came back just looking like bright and glowing.

And I was like, don't Louise, where, where have you been? And he was like, I, I was just up in the mountains for the last couple of days. I there's a, there's a cave, this special spot up there that I go to to reflect and to clear my head and, and,, I think it's something that's shared kind of across cultures and across, , genders where the need to retreat and to, but also to have like a place that you go to for him, it was like a secret place for him.

It was like this cave. I was like, where is it? Is it up? Is it those cave? I was like, no, no, no. It's way further. It it's way up in the minds. You're like, you wouldn't be able to find it. You get lost. I'm like, OK, don't lose. Yeah, fair enough. , you know, but he goes there regularly as a dad, , soon as a grandfather and that's his place to, to recharge, ?

Uh, so I think, um, obviously, , both of you agree and heard you talk about it and, and the need for retreat and what it offers. But, but yeah, I think if it's something that you agree to as a family and in partnership that can only have rippling benefits for the long trajectory of our life together.

And as parents, you know, Totally. 

[00:35:16] Dave: I mean, that's, it's sort of like what the TV has become, right? Lying , on the couch, watching TV, I think is an attempt to retreat , , and, maybe a failed attempt., I mean, sometimes it's lovely, but, , cave sounds so much.

more, rejuvenating mm-hmm . That just reminded me of a little adventure I had around lake at Telan 

[00:35:45] Tim: all right, let's do it. Yeah. gotta relive that freely. 

[00:35:50] Dave: So I had that, I had the great privilege to go visit Tim and his family. in, uh, San Juan LA Launa Tim and I went out one night. , it's funny to say that it's not like a there's, there's no nightlife seen, but, Tim his family had driven there.

So he had a car in storage and pulled out the car and we, we went on a little journey , And we were going back to the car and the car was locked in, in the, in a parking lot of a church mm-hmm and, was, I don't know, 10 o'clock at night or something. Mm-hmm 

[00:36:30] Tim: yeah. And, uh, which is dark there.

It's late. 

[00:36:33] Dave: Yeah. , there aren't taxis, there, there aren't a lot of cars mm-hmm , ? Um, and so we had a nice, nice walk together, around a chunk of lake Olana at night. And, , , fortunately Tim is, , fluent in Spanish.

Um, and, but not just fluent, but really conversational, can speak with anybody about anything. And, um, so got us home safely. But we definitely faced large packs of dogs, uh, wild dogs who, , I think we were both 

[00:37:09] Tim: terrified of. Yeah, it was, I mean, just one of those totally unexpected, , adventures that,, when presented with her, just like, well, what are options?

I guess this is like the most desirable, a lot of unpleasant options and,, The next town over San Pablo, when we'd ask people in San Marcos, they'd be like, oh no, you can't walk through there at this hour. That's oh, no way. San Pablo. Mm that's. In like, well, that's kinda what we have to do. , and people were, people were fine as we walked through, but you know, one of those things that can't be scripted and that turns out to be one of the more memorable, like bonding kinds of experiences that , that Dave and I have had.

And definitely on that trip, it was, it was the biggest adventure. And, , I appreciate it. Like you can't script that you can't plan for that. Oh no, 

[00:37:57] Dave: we wouldn't have planned for that. yeah, but you know, I, I did have this moment, Tim. I gotta, I gotta tell you that. I was like, if I'm gonna be walking at night, Along, uh, these dark roads with packs of dogs.

, I can't think of anyone I'd rather be with

that just 

[00:38:17] Tim: touches my heart, Dave that's. Yeah. 

[00:38:20] Dave: Well, ,, I know your skill set and I know your ability to think on your feet , and you have this way, you're like, you're calm in crisis, ?

Yeah. That's, that's one of your gifts. Mm-hmm , you had a smile in your face the whole time where facing wild dogs and, um, I had rocks in my hands personally, , but yeah, I felt like, all right, at least I'm with 

[00:38:42] Tim: Tim. Yeah. Well, good. It was mutual. It was mutual. Cause that kinda stuff can build, you know, energetically.

[00:38:49] Noah: Yeah. Well, I wanna point to something, Which is that I imagine that the, this group of fathers who are gonna come on this adventure with you, over the course of four days in September in the mountains facing, who knows what the weather will be, who, you know, and, and going through whatever,, activities are, are facilitated and then going into whatever spontaneous things arise.

, I'm guessing these guys are gonna come out with, , deep connections with each other. And, that's something we all need as, as, as dads and that, uh, you know, could potentially, could potentially be something that , continues on. Right? Yeah. And that one day. A month or two later, they're meeting up for a beer kind of laughing at whatever mishaps or sort of adventures happened on this trip.

, or maybe there's like one of those late night phone calls where it's like, do you have time to just help me, right. Figure this thing out, cuz , we just got into this huge blowout fight and I don't know who else to call right now, ? Yeah. Like, , those kinds of it, you. Yes, you have some of us have those like long lasting friendships from a long, long time ago, but sometimes it's almost easier to build those connections quickly in one of these sort of more intense, intentional spaces.

And so, I mean, I love that story. That's great. I, I, I was wondering if you guys learned the secrets of a time Jaguar while you were, um, on that adventure. I don't know if either of, you know, that book, but, uh, 

[00:40:36] Tim: yeah. Yeah. We read quite a bit of Martin prick and he definitely, I mean, his stories were with us the whole time on lake out Telon and, um, yeah, which amazing the work he's doing is, is so deep and, yeah, another one of those things we like oh, different life or with more time, you know, maybe it would just go like study with him, and we have friends that are, that are part of the that's good, you know, his bullets, kitchen, but.

Yeah, he's an amazing teacher and, and wise human being. , so just to think of a couple things that came up for me there, no, I really appreciate you,, bringing it back to the group that on the red expedition, I think there's so many different ways that you can create that solidarity and there, playing music can do it together.

, entering into those kind of uncertain creative spaces, uh, circles and groups can do it really well, you know it, but anyway, it requires us an intentional space, a separation, the,, the right set and setting. And this is, , for me, from my perspective, I think there's a lot of people that, , would also feel this while, , natural settings do that better than anything.

And, , just the mundane, , Walking on the trail, lacing up your shoes, putting the pack on, being bored on the trail. If you're, you know, if it's unusual for you to be walking in the natural world or being totally amazed by what you're seeing, but all those things just create, um, a sense, yeah. A shared experience, uh, in a group that's doing it together and just like, uh, peeling back of the layers of like distraction that, , come into what I, what I would say specifically city living.

So, you know, so that, that is a hope that it can bring people closer together and, oh, there's a cell service. Yeah. Yeah. Oh no. Are we gonna have connection? How are we gonna find any connection out there? Yeah. I mean, um, yeah, and it's, so I think it's one way to do it. It's the way that really resonates for me.

And I think the nature connection piece or the out,, wild space is, I would say it's fairly universal. There's that nature medicine that, that is universal and. Then there's the piece of this, , this type of program might not be for everyone, but, but I would hope that for the folks that come it, it is, and it's the right medicine.

Um, and it can create that solidarity. And that kind of, , I think from my experience , both as a dad and as well as moving through pandemic and, , so many of the, , I guess ways that, um, our world kind of narrows, , as sometimes often as we get older, both because of our mindsets and because of our, , surroundings, .

It's so easy to, to , to sort of skate on the surface of things in, in our social interactions and, and you all don't do you go deep? I mean, you're, this is deep work that you're doing and your groups are deep, but in general, I'm saying in general, you know, interactions and in day to day circumstances, it's, that's the, that's the norm, you know?

Um, and we need to crack that open and, and there's so many ways to crack it open and being in the mountains on an adventure in September where it could snow and where, you might get muddy and cold and food might, you know, not come out as you expected. And you're able to be by yourself. You're able to be with others and, and so many different, , contexts over a four day period with an intention with that intention of, , specifically the work that reconnects, , reflecting on the work that we're doing as humans on the planet, In our families as fathers.

Uh, yeah, hopefully there's solidarity and, and a bit of, you know, and rejuvenation for, for folks that come along. Hmm. I love it. 

[00:44:10] Dave: Yeah. Will you paint the, just , what are the days gonna look like? You wake up, there's, you you're hoping for, 

[00:44:18] Tim: nine fathers. Yeah.

For a total minimum impact camping kind of, you know, approach tends a large group size. And so, , smaller would be even better, but up to 10, , and the pattern, the spiral of the work that reconnects guides the theme of each day. So I think it's important that, you know, Noah mentioning all that, , is needed to allow us to leave for four days, deserves so much gratitude and ceremony and, , Whatever modest attempts at reciprocity we can muster, through blessings of, of gratitude, , with our partners, with our children, with other folks that might make this possible, the gratitude's the start of the spiral.

and so the first day, there's that departure with gratitude, and moving into the mountains, , it'll be a base camp, , program. So for the three nights it'll be base camp, , not a, not a terribly hard hike. It's, there's not, you know, huge physical challenges necessarily that are, that are required and, , any, , reasonably fit, , adult father should be able to, to participate.

The pike might be four miles or so to a base camp. So a lot of the days will be just occupied by the kind of mundane activity of. Self care, moving on a trail together, setting up camp cooking and things like that. The next day is, , feeling our pain for the world, which one option would be to, to hike up in the higher mountains, , potentially climb a peak.

There's some kind of Ridge climbs and really exhilarating, , types of climbs that could be done there., and those will,, also be with the intention of, connecting with our grief and our pain for the world. There's. Phenomenon in the Andes, in the central Andes, , where people , , bring rocks up the mountains, actually in the Himalayas as well with prayers, but bring rocks up to the top of a mountain and create rock piles called APA CHITAS, which literally means, , Le a burden leaving behind a burden.

So at any rock pass or any summit there's rocks that are left. And so that kind of like moving over a pass or moving up a summit, we can see as, as caring and then leaving a burden, which metaphorically, you know, it's easy to draw the connection to, to the grief and the pain that we feel for the world.

Uh, through solos and sit spots and things like that. The next day, we would hope to focus on seeing with new eyes. , so some of that will be like participant led. If, if participants want to have a full day or an overnight solo, they, they may, or if they wanna just wake up at Dawn and have a sit spot to, you know, see that, hear the Don chorus of, of the birds, that'll probably be leaving the mountains at that time or elk as they're passing through.

, that would be day three. And then day four is returning home with intentions and using ceremony and, , engaged conversations to, to transfer the, , the experience back home., and throughout,, really, depending on the group, we really hope that there's music and writing and poetry and,, other ceremony, , throughout to, you know, to carry us as well.

Hmm. Incredible. Yeah. Beautiful. 

[00:47:25] Dave: I love it. That's. Yeah., 

[00:47:26] Tim: come along. 

[00:47:27] Dave: yeah. There might be, there might be two spots filled up here, folks already.

yeah. So, beautiful offerings all around Tim. Um, I'm psyched about this one. , and, I'm just like loved watching what you're up to in the world and appreciate you appreciate what you're doing and who you are. 

[00:47:52] Tim: Thank you. And yeah. Right back at both of you, I mean, I, I feel like. I've been able to listen to, , every episode you put out and it almost always arrives at the right time, , listening to, to Jeff and the music and nature education as well.

I was like, oh my gosh, that's so perfect. Like that's, that's, they're really, really tuned into something, you know, so smart and so engaging with kiddos and I, and I love Jeff and Paige as well. And, and obviously like the soul centric work that bill kins doing on your other, you know, soul centric, parenting podcast.

That's just, I feel like your nugget, the nuggets you're dropping are just always arriving at the right time. I make my, I make, I do a lot of fermenting sour, crown and, and kombucha and things at night. And I'm, I that's when I listen to podcasts and yeah, I mean, they come at like hard days where you offer like, kind of that, that mirror for me to be able to reflect on how I'm doing, how I've shown up during the day.

And that's sort of like the foundation that I, that I always really appreciate is, is just,, the reminder that, that our self work is the. Is the foundation for everything. And I find myself yeah. At the end of hard days, just kinda like, yep. There it is again. All right. let's, let's try again tomorrow.

but yeah, it is there's this, so this synergy with the work that you all are doing that I really, really appreciate. Um, and , look forward to continuing that as, as you all go forth as well. Yeah. And learning from you all. 

[00:49:16] Dave: Thank you. Thank you so much, likewise. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:49:19] Noah: yeah, just as we wrap things up, I'm wondering if you can share with everybody how they can get in touch with you.

, yeah. , 

[00:49:28] Tim: so again, yeah, my name's Tim Hare, , Shannon. And I run , , as a community initiative, , program, , called left to wonder which houses a lot of the different functions , that were hosting, uh, including the nature connection programs for kiddos and the rat expedition, the.

Webs address is www.lefttowonder.org. And , our email there is info dot left to wonder gmail.com. As you can see, , we're trying really hard not to run a business. Uh, we're really, trying to stay on the margins and keep it fun. Keep it fun. So everything's very, very basic. We don't do a lot of outreach.

We don't do a lot of promotion, , but you can find us there and love to hear from you. Yeah. Have a look at the, at the website, the offering is on there under the rights and retreats tab. The red expedition is as well as the, , wonder nature connection programs that we're, that we're hosting in the summertime.

We're in our last week right now. So, , have a lookout for, for next summer's offerings sometime around the new year. And , I'd love to hear from you. Thank you. Beautiful. And 

[00:50:44] Dave: one last question. Yeah. That we're trying, we're trying to remember to ask each guest, which is just , , what's one nugget you might offer a dad, you know, something you've learned from your journey as a dad that you would wanna 

[00:50:59] Tim: pass on to others.

Yeah. Gosh, there's so like, it's so hard to find those like universals every, every, every everything's so subjective, especially when it comes to parenting. So we all kind of bring our history and life experience and biases and baggage to it. I think, , one thing I struggle with a lot, you know, maybe as a dad, there could be some gendered aspects to it and kind of a acculturation, but I struggle with this, , need to have a plan or to have things figured out or be in control and.

One thing that I've been working on a lot. And I think the journey over the last two years has been a really good kind of trial space for it is to, to, , lean into the possibility or the very, or the likelihood or the certainty that we don't have much figured out. And that, , sometimes fathering pushes us towards this need for security or predictability sometimes justify it as that's what our family needs,, it's the, it's in their benefit and yeah, letting go of that certainty, and the need to have the right plan.

I think it can help us be better parents and definitely better stewards of the earth, , living with more humility and openness to, , to being wrong or maybe not having the right plan or the right idea all the time. I love it. 

[00:52:28] Dave: Thank you for that. 

[00:52:30] Tim: Oh, thank you all. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:52:32] Dave: I'm gonna, I'm gonna ferment that one.

for myself. 

[00:52:37] Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Healthy amount of rotten decay and fermentation there. Absolutely. 

[00:52:44] Dave: Absolutely. All right. Well, before we end Noah, , yeah, we've got, we've got a little offering coming up as well. Don't we? We do. We do. Yeah. Could pair nicely with a rat. Could, could, could be a nice, 

[00:53:01] Noah: could go together, like, uh, peanut butter and jelly.

Ooh, 

[00:53:05] Dave: I like that. What

do we got Mr. Peanut butter? 

[00:53:12] Noah: So our, um, our nine month cohort program is starting this fall, this September, uh, the second week of September. And it's nine months, we meet twice a month, , for a couple hours, , on a Wednesday evening from seven 30 to nine 30. And, we drop in as a group of dads opening up, you know, our hearts, connecting with each other, , getting the load off, , maybe learning a thing or two taking some, some tricks and , , going home to our families, more resourced, more connected, more confident.

And so all of information for that is that our website, uh, council, fathers.com. I dunno if there's anything you wanna add. 

[00:53:59] Dave: I'm excited about 

[00:54:00] Noah: it. Yeah. I mean, it feels like, like we're saying the other night it feels like council of fathers 2.0, you know, it's like the cohort program 2.0 uh, up level, so .

It's gonna be 

[00:54:12] Dave: really 

[00:54:13] Noah: special group of guys 

[00:54:15] Dave: coalescing. Yeah. It's in person at a very special place off a left hand canyon. 

[00:54:23] Noah: Sweet. Thank you, Tim. Thank you 

[00:54:26] Tim: all. Thank you so much. What a gift. What an honor. Thank you.

Yeah. All right. 

[00:54:29] Dave: All right. Y'all thank you so much for listening and we will see you hear you next time. Peace.