Music, Nature, and Fatherhood Fun: an Interview with Jeff Kagan of Jeff and Paige
Jeff and Paige are a legendarily mesmerizing educational musical duo for children in Boulder, Colorado.
In this episode with interview Jeff Kagan to learn more about his journey into the profession and his experiences as a father.
Jeff and Paige have uniquely mastered the art of enjoyable, entertaining, and educational music which focuses primarily on nature and ecology. This conversation roams through the forests of fatherhood and touches on all sorts of themes related to all of the above topics.
Learn more about Jeff and Paige and their offerings at www.jeffandpaige.org
Transcript included below (transcription is thanks to artificial intelligence and may include a variety of mistakes and errors):
Interview with Jeff Kagan of Jeff and Paige
[00:00:00] Noah: Hi, and welcome to the council of fathers podcast. We're bringing a heartful perspective to this wild journey. We call fatherhood I'm Noah Goldstein.
[00:00:12] Dave: I'm Dave, Bonaiuto.
[00:00:14] Noah: And today we are here with a guest. Our first guest
[00:00:18] Dave: are inaugural guests
[00:00:21] Noah: Welcome to the show, Jeff.
[00:00:23] Jeff: you. It's wonderful to be here in this space with both of you find fathers.
[00:00:28] Noah: Awesome.
[00:00:29] Dave: So, , yeah, we're, we're super excited to have Jeff,
because Jeff,
is,
,
not only a father of two,
, but also such a great musician and entertainer and,
a teacher
in our community. and
Jeff, I, I just
want to say
that I, I love your music.
thank you, Dave.
And. Specifically, I wanted to tell you what, I love about your music is that There's a lot of , kids music out there that you discover when you become a parent that is really annoying and, you know, no offense to, you know, those staples of music history, but, , but your music is interesting to listen to and fun to dance to, and and it teaches the kids and the grownups like it. too. And thank you for that.
[00:01:23] Jeff: Thank you. That is a nice way to start.
You have my full attention.
[00:01:30] Dave: Yeah, . Thanks for being here.
And we want to talk about like, three main things
today,
, we want to talk About fatherhood.
because
that's what we talk about
[00:01:40] Noah: usually as well. We talk about
[00:01:42] Dave: And we are Lucky to have you here. because we also want
to talk about nature
And the
value of nature in
um, raising
kids
And we want to talk about music and the value of music
in
,
parenting.
[00:01:59] Jeff: Hmm. I like talking about all three of those things.
[00:02:03] Dave: Cool.
[00:02:03] Noah: Yes.
[00:02:04] Dave: So before we get into the sort of content of the
conversation, just would love, to hear a little bit
about how Jeff and page became
Jeff and page, like, how did y'all, what, what was your journey to get here?
[00:02:23] Jeff: Uh, yes, let's, let's go into that journey. Um, so first of all, for your listeners who don't know my name's Jeff Kagan, , I am one half of a Boulder, Colorado husband and wife, musical duo. That's focused on science and nature for preschool and elementary schools, kids, and we call ourselves Jeff and page.
[00:02:46] Dave: that We
[00:02:47] Jeff: we poured over that one for awhile. Um, and yeah, we, it is both our passion and our living, , to do concerts at schools and libraries and nature centers and festivals. It is a combination of theater and costumes and audience participation, music, and most importantly education about, um, ecology and the natural world.
So in answer to your question, Yeah, not something that either of us applied online for. It is very much an organic unintentional creation born out of our mutual passion for the natural world and most importantly, community and music. Um, so Paige and I met in graduate school for environmental education.
And please don't think traditional grad school, we were on this bio-diesel school bus that travel, traveled the country for two years, camping outside, um, putting on seminars for our fellow classmates. The faculty are there on the bus. We've got a stove underneath and we're, we're essentially living outdoors and figuring out the best ways to teach about the things we come in contact with.
Yeah. it
[00:04:00] Noah: It's amazing.
[00:04:01] Jeff: A wild journey and um, yeah, at the end of that program, having all this fire. Education and creative ways of, , getting messages across that didn't make people feel like doom and gloom about human species and, , Jeff and page very slowly, , was born out of our connection in that graduate program.
, I'll kind of give some bullet points, so I don't go on and on, but, , we started dating around the same time we started working together and that has been both beautiful and messy as anyone who's in a partnership knows I'm working with your partner will make you face everything in both your marriage and your professional union.
, we just, we start. We luckily have had the partnership with the city of Boulder open space and mountain parks for 18 years are kind of a nog Nagarro program, metal music that I think both of you have attended, , up near the flat irons in Boulder, Colorado. This will be its 18th season, um, a free weekly open to everybody, no registration necessary program in a beautiful natural place.
And all of the music, all of the antics, all of the costumes, all of the growing pains and joys have been born out of that program. Um, I'll pause there and let you, uh, guide me where you'd like me to go slurp time.
[00:05:33] Dave: Yeah. Um, so the graduate school led to the dating, which led to like sort of one off events which turned into a cult following and a rock and roll lifestyle.
[00:05:50] Jeff: yes. The rock and roll lifestyle of the father at the stove.
Yes.
[00:05:58] Dave: Yeah. ,
. Beautiful man. And what about your journey with music?
, you're not just I said earlier you're not just, ,
um, you're not just strumming and singing songs. You write real music. And where did you get that from? And you play real guitar? Like you're a guitarist, you're a singer songwriter.
Where, w w where'd that all come from?
[00:06:24] Jeff: Thank you for asking it's. I mean, just hearing you. Highlight that I'm a musician. Like, I don't think of myself that way.
First and foremost, I'm like, oh, my background is in education and the guitar and the theatrical and the costumes were all born out of finding creative ways to educate.
[00:06:45] Dave: Um,
[00:06:46] Jeff: so for me, music has always been just a vehicle to, to share in a different way about the things that are important to me. , like it works a lot better to dress up like a tree and sing about how much I love taking carbon dioxide into my leaves.
Then standing up there and doing a PowerPoint presentation and that doesn't just go for children. It goes for any of us. Um, so, but the musical for me, it was. Always born out of a love of singing. And I just wanted to be, I would sing with two friends, we'd do harmonies to Beatles songs. I still have the Beatles fake book with every chord to every Beatle song.
[00:07:27] Dave: Oh, sweet.
I
[00:07:28] Jeff: wanted to be the guy that was accompanying. Some of those songs. We had passed the guitar around and our levels differed greatly. So there was one guy who was kind of the song leader. , and I kinda wanted to be him or at least on par with him. So, , painstakingly through college kind of hacked my way through those chord progressions.
And it was, it's the best thing in my life. Just playing music and sharing it with people, including my own children who often tell me to stop playing music while I'm strumming,
Gotta
[00:08:02] Dave: love 'em.
[00:08:03] Noah: I'm so familiar with that. You're like holding the guitar, trying to play something and they're coming over and they're slapping it or they're yeah. Taking it away from you.
[00:08:12] Jeff: is it more of a desire to be part of it or to stop it so that your attention is on them?
[00:08:19] Dave: Yes.
[00:08:20] Jeff: Yes, yes. Is the answer.
[00:08:23] Dave: so
[00:08:25] Noah: tell me a little bit about your drive , like where does this educational impulse come from in terms of you, you being an educator choosing that path.
[00:08:35] Jeff: ,
Um, it was in college. I was pre-med and, um, had a lot of high level science classes. And then in summers in between school, I started taking these long distance backpacking trips. Not really knowing what I was getting myself into, like 30 day trips, , two, two summers in a row. And that combined with these high level science classes really opened my eyes.
And I would say not in a great way in my early to mid twenties, I was like very angry at what I saw was, you know, the human humans place on, on this particular planet and wanting to make changes. , so initially that desire to educate it was if I could say it was a little more, self-righteous like, I must do this.
This is my mission, which is important. It's good to have your mission and know what you're passionate about. But at times it alienated me from people. I loved my parents for instance, um, and. 18 years later, it has soft and a lot more into wanting to inspire splendor about other species and wanting to create community, um, that I feel a part of as well as a, as a father.
And you know, the guy with the guitar on the stage.
[00:10:00] Noah: Well, it sounds like something happened for you spending long periods of time, deep in nature and the natural world. It woke something up within you. , and, and I'm almost hearing a calling.
[00:10:19] Jeff: it was, yeah. Kind of like a lifting of a veil where I was like, oh, oh my, um, I'm not so sure I like this and this is the truth.
And now everyone must feel the same way. Um, and the, the truth is there are many truths. So, um,
I like to find creative, soft, and non polarizing ways to express mine in a fun way, especially to children. Um, because their joy is so palpable and they are such a real audience. They are not going to politely clap.
If you are not engaging them as anyone knows
[00:10:58] Dave: who has
[00:10:59] Jeff: children?
[00:11:00] Dave: yeah. No tact yet.
Yeah.
That's a blessing and a curse.
Isn't it?
[00:11:05] Jeff: I like that. I know that when I'm on, it's not because the audience was politely responding
[00:11:12] Dave: Yeah.
Nice.
[00:11:13] Jeff: I'm off, I know what to
fix.
[00:11:15] Noah: Yeah.
[00:11:16] Dave: Yeah. Well, you've created, something amazing and you know, I think now's a good,
time to mention. You're wearing some beautiful socks, rainbow,
knee, knee socks.
[00:11:33] Jeff: caressed them lightly.
[00:11:36] Dave: Is that the sound the socks would
make?
[00:11:38] Jeff: socks would be more like
[00:11:41] Dave: okay. Okay. My bad. Yeah.
So
The, uh, Jeff and Paige event, is a very happy, um, dancing, fun we were, you know, the kids are having fun and they're mesmerized. The kids are mesmerized.
I remember that, the first time we went to a show, um, yeah, the kids just get this look on their face and then they start moving towards the stage and the grownups stay back and look at each other like, wow. Our kids aren't here, there, we can talk to each other and everyone has fun. and kids learn something too. I mean, grown ups learn stuff too.
but Yeah, it's really cool to hear. my kids say, you know, apex Predator. and, you know, um, I dunno, they just come home with little gems
and, and it's cool that they're, They're getting a sense of, , yeah, I feel like you're painting this picture of rather than like radical righteous rebellion that you're trying to inspire something, you know, a move towards something rather than a reaction to something, else.
Is that?
[00:13:05] Jeff: Exactly.
[00:13:06] Noah: one hand in hand with that. Just some it's. I, my background is also in ecology and conservation science and sometimes messages are received more. Um, Easily from other people. Right. And so, like, I know that if I were to try to talk about all of the VC ecosystem processes and you know, their eyes would glaze over and then they would stop liking nature and, , so having somebody else who's doing it in this beautiful, entertaining, fun, uplifting ways is, is really fantastic.
[00:13:44] Jeff: Yeah. And I think, yeah, for me, an example, a perfect example of that is we have a song called dead and delicious ,
[00:13:52] Noah: that is the song that has been in my head leading up to this interview.
[00:13:57] Jeff: okay.
[00:13:57] Dave: Is that the one about the Raven?
[00:13:59] Jeff: Yes, exactly. And so it's always, really like food waste has always really bothered me. , especially as a father, like any dad out there knows what it's like to see the, the lovingly prepared meal eaten half if you're lucky.
, and that has always bothered me, not just with children, but like. With, especially with Americans. So that song is from the perspective of a Raven and the skit that leads up to it as pages drive in her car. And then the Raven comes out and starts eating this flattened skunk prop that we have and pages, Ooh, gross.
And then I can say, well, you know, what I think is real Americans waste enough food every day to fill a football stadium. I, on the other hand and be efficient, Hey baby, I'm a scavenger. I'll eat just about anything. And then sharing that, , perspective where I can embody a whole different set of beliefs and teachings.
If I pretend to be that character and not just for kids, but for adults as well. And I'm dressed like I'm dressed as a big black bird on the stage saying something, it's not Jeff talking , but it's important that I don't put on too much of an outfit where the kids can't tell that it's actually still Jeff or it will terrify one out of 30 children masks.
No, no,
[00:15:53] Dave: You learned that the hard way.
yes
[00:15:56] Jeff: we have.
[00:15:57] Dave: Yeah. I love that.
I love that. song By the way
And , And I I wanted to ask you,
who is that you playing electric guitar, and that
[00:16:07] Jeff: that song is so I have a few friends that when you see a Jeff and paid show, it's nine times out of 10, just Jeff and page. But we do have some friends who are also parents in their early forties who sometimes can join us.
And that song is, , electric guitar played by my friend, mark, who, if you come to meadow music, you'll see him at some of those events, just shredding for the children. I do not know how to play electric guitar. So.
[00:16:38] Dave: Yeah,
[00:16:38] Jeff: the acoustic SL me
[00:16:41] Dave: That's you. right. Beautiful.
So that that's off an album
called
[00:16:46] Jeff: that album is called mighty Wolf.
[00:16:48] Dave: And why did you name the
album? Mighty
[00:16:50] Jeff: what a leading question. You know, the answer, my seven year old is named Wolf after his great-grandfather. , I'm sorry. Great uncle. And yeah, that album was written while he was in utero and recorded painstakingly during his first year of life. Yeah. And released, , right around his first birthday. So six years ago
[00:17:16] Dave: So you were
performing.
for kids for years and years before having your own kid.
And what, And what was that like?
Jeff to transit, like to,
You know, become one of your
audience.
[00:17:33] Jeff: That's a great question. , it's both. So having a child and then a second child, I have a two year old daughter named Alice and being a father of two, makes me understand our audience all the more, both the children and the adults.
Why the adults come, what we can offer in terms of a break for those adults in a public setting, the education for those kids. , getting to try out silly little songs, or even skits at my breakfast table with my own children and see what they respond to. So that's all wonderful. And then on the other hand, as anyone who, you know, Works and has children knows it, it became infinitely harder to do what we have to do.
And my wife and I, when we are on, we are both on, at the same time. So our childcare, logistics and bills are astronomical, , because, and a lot of people are like, oh, where, where are your kids? Um, it is really hard to bring them to events. So you'll see them occasionally, but , they, they respect our boundaries when the, when the rainbow socks go on, like they will let us do our thing on stage, but before the show and after the show.
[00:18:50] Dave: claim,
[00:18:52] Jeff: And I can't effectively be part of the community that I want to be a part of ironically, which is the community of parents and children when my own kids are there. It's, it's very interesting. But when they are there, there's a whole other experience of getting to share myself as a father with these kids and let, let the parents and children see how Jeff muddles through it in a public situation.
Yeah.
[00:19:17] Noah: I like that word, muddle, muddle.
[00:19:20] Jeff: Yeah. Isn't that? What parenting is
[00:19:23] Noah: I can just imagine the internal, constraint.
This is like what I would feel like when, you know, trying to.
[00:19:30] Dave: to,
[00:19:32] Jeff: To
[00:19:32] Dave: to
[00:19:33] Noah: do what you're trying to do all at the same time kind of field your children, or, you know yeah. Support them in whatever ways they need. But yeah. And I could totally get that decision to just be like, well, let's just get childcare this
[00:19:50] Jeff: Yeah, it's interesting. And if they, if they start crying while we're on stage lyrics, start getting forgotten. Um, at certain times, milk started flowing on stage at two, the response of, you know, one of our children crying in the audience. Um, and yeah, it's, Paige has worn our children at while performing at different times and it's just a champ and yes, it's, it makes it a lot more difficult to focus on the show at hand, it becomes the show like hope, how are they going to do that? Which is, which is an aspect as well, I suppose.
[00:20:33] Dave: Yeah.
I
appreciate the public display of parenting. , it's sort of they say life is like,
, , learning the violin while being Plugged into.
an app,
you know, yeah, , your vocation and your
life are, are sort of very much
one, , And so you're up there demonstrating.
your Life is
there for everyone to see and that's
vulnerable.
[00:20:59] Jeff: Yeah. And I like to be available for the kids before and after the other kids, not my own, it feels nice to be an adult who works with children and is fully available to give those kids something in that moment.
And just be part of creating that scene of, of parents and kids out and about hopefully in a beautiful natural place, connecting and, you know, feeling the community of music and maybe learning something
[00:21:29] Dave: my experience.
on the other end is, , to come to a weekend and be like, oh, what am I going to do with my kids? Oh, thank God. There's a Jeff
and page, show, you
know, like it, it really is a gift, you know?
to the, to the community to have, , something enriching.
for the whole family to do together.
[00:21:50] Noah: Yeah. There's this one concert that was at the Rayback collective on like a Saturday or Sunday morning that like stands out as this thing. My wife was out of town and she's like, oh, don't worry if there's a Jeff and Paige concert. And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, I got that. Yeah. And Hazel, Hazel, just . W, you know, she would just zoom up to the stage and just, and there was the, you know, mesmerized that word there was, there's also, it was interesting to see fandom arise.
It was like, oh, this is something kind of built into us as humans that we, we gravitate towards musical , experiences and just, and, and the way, yeah, it creates this, this bond for the kids and for the, for the adults and you guys, , people can get the rainbow legwarmers and then you see another kid and you're like, oh, I know that, you know, like we're in the same tribe, you know, or yeah.
Or the wings that the Monarch wings, the shirts that lift up,
[00:22:52] Dave: My kids have those. Yeah.
Yeah. It's pretty awesome.
[00:22:57] Jeff: there was something that came to mind when you were oh, and I just wanted to say like, with that fandom, like, it doesn't last we've seen in our kids. We have them maybe two, maybe three, four, if we're really lucky years, there'll be super fans of Jeff and Paige. And then inevitably.
[00:23:15] Dave: move up.
Um,
[00:23:17] Jeff: but we do have, we'll have high schoolers.
Now we have college students sometimes coming back, they all come to that, you know, Monday evening and up at Chautauqua and maybe set out a picnic, do the hand motions. My goal is that, you know, maybe you, you don't listen to Jeff and Paige anymore, but you remember the songs from your formative years of getting introduced to music
and maybe it helps you pass
your high school chemistry test or something.
You remember a little something about the, uh, I don't know, pollination, or
[00:23:50] Noah: or when you learn how to drive you, you share the road.
[00:23:53] Jeff: Oh yes, yes. I like that
[00:23:56] Dave: Yeah, for sure. I, yeah, I think at the very least
You are associating fun with
nature.
and science
and music,
Right? those
things are all, linked together for an hour or so
And that's a,
that's a wind. That's a huge
[00:24:18] Jeff: very gratifying for me. It's just keep it coming.
Thank you.
[00:24:23] Dave: Yeah. Where are you going to say
[00:24:25] Noah: Well, I was going to ask a question. , so it sort of circling back right in college, you had these like deep experiences in nature that w woke something up within you and, and compelled you to focus on teaching, educating, supporting other people in understanding maybe.
Cognitively, but also in having an emotional, uh, loving, appreciative connection to the natural world. Right. Because even if we understand how important the carbon cycle is, we're, we're not going to actually be motivated to donate money to conservation organizations or, you know, spend our time on the weekend, cleaning up a park, unless we feel in our hearts, like this matters, this is important.
And, um, yeah. And so I'm just, I'm kind of curious if you could speak a little bit more about
[00:25:27] Dave: what,
[00:25:29] Noah: what you see as, as this connection, connecting kids, connecting adults, connecting people to nature. and, and if for you there's any inherent sort of.
[00:25:41] Dave: of,
[00:25:42] Noah: I'm just going to use the word soul full quality to the natural world that you also hope comes through, or
[00:25:49] Jeff: um, yes.
That is a big question. A great question. , so I think the first thing that comes to mind is when I think back to my own kind of aha moment, almost a conversion, like we don't have. Like, I'm not taking my kids on 30 day backpack trips. I'm not taking them on three day backpack trips,
[00:26:10] Dave: little
[00:26:12] Jeff: things where our family is fully present outdoors in nature,
,
are a beautiful way.
Just a short walk across this field, which we're lucky enough to have right out of our back gate to a small stream. , and it lasts 12 minutes or maybe we are, we're riding a bike. , I have my happy place with my kids is this bicycle that can hold both of them and listening to music, but sometimes just saying, Hey, we're going to take a break from the music.
Like tell me three things you notice. So just building it into our life a little more, instead of saying, we're going to take this whole day and hike in these beautiful mountains, which we're so lucky to live nearby, which I would love to do more of. But, , I, if I'm honest, most of my. You know, sharing nature with my own kids is very small and very much woven in to my own life.
I showed my kid a time-lapse video of a rap decomp being decomposed by fungus the other day, because he wanted to watch a video. And I was like, all right, you're going to watch this,
, and
connect with these biological processes that sustain us for your screen time. And I am no Saint, by the way, he watched two cartoons later that day that did not connect to the decomposition and regrowth of plants from the soil it created.
, so yeah, , but I think the little, the little things that are integrated within our lives as parents, , are the ways to do it. , and the last thing I'll say is for me, A golf ball has been my tool. Like I'll give him a golf ball, I'll take a golf ball and we are going to do, we're not going hiking.
We're going to do an adventure walk with the golf ball. And it's like, first, we're going to roll the golf ball through this culvert. And then we're going to see if we can hit that tree. And then we're going to see who can bowl it, the furthest along the trail without it going off. And we're, that has been a really nice, very simple tool to grab right on the way outside the door and just see where those adventures take us.
[00:28:17] Dave: Cool. What a great way to play golf. I love
that.
[00:28:21] Jeff: Nature golf.
[00:28:22] Dave: Yeah.
[00:28:23] Noah: Well, and I just, I really love , what I'm hearing, you know, just as that, it doesn't have to be this grand big thing. It's about the little things and, you know, the moments and, and I've certainly experienced firsthand the folly of trying to go on like a bigger hike or, and, and how that leads to this.
Like, uh, you know, you know, the whining and then I'm not having fun and they're not having fun. And, and, uh, and these sort of trail games, and sometimes we've, we've done like literally bribed them with like chocolate chips or whatever, little treats to get them to, you know,
[00:29:04] Jeff: everything tastes better out there. They should have chocolate outside. It's delicious,
[00:29:08] Noah: it's so good. And, um, and sometimes we'll bring like little, little figurines or things to sort of hide all along the trails and yeah. But, . Short sweet, simple moments, rather than making everything have to be bigger and harder.
[00:29:23] Dave: Isn't it wild how hard it can be to get our kids outside and then how much
They love it I'm so sick of that battle.
Like you're going to love, the hike. I promise you that, you know, and we do the same thing.
Like, yeah, you can have a piece of gum when you get to the top of the hike or or whatever, and then once they're outside, something happens like that's undeniable. And I feel like that's, that is a parenting strategy is to be outside with your kids.
Like It changes them, you know, , And maybe one of the reasons the last two years, one of the many reasons the last few years that's been hard is that people have been cooped up inside, you know, like they closed the trails at one point, , and that's not good for kids. And when my kids are acting fools, , and I take them outside, something shifts, they transform.
[00:30:24] Jeff: Yes.
[00:30:25] Noah: I mean the same applies to me. If I'm, if I'm sometimes
[00:30:29] Dave: Well, you're a kid at heart Noah.
[00:30:31] Noah: that's true. I'm walking circles around the house feeling anxious and flustered. And, you know, and if I just like step outside even into the yard and I'm like, I can breathe again.
I'm like all the sudden, all of a sudden, all of those things that seemed so urgent and anxiety producing, , even in the winter, , just like the trees, even without their leaves somehow kind of do something. And another parenting strategy for being outdoors I've found is, , finding another.
Family to be with Hazel Cannes and Zephyr Zephyr. I mean, he's only four and a half. He can, he can hike. Like he can go the distance when there's a group of other kids who are going to distance. But it's amazing. When it's just our little family, , maybe we get 50 yards and it's what, , all of the whining and the, this isn't the, but if we have another family with us and they have a friend, , we can go miles literally, literally.
And it's
[00:31:34] Jeff: the same
[00:31:34] Dave: Yeah.
Pike the whole day, as long as she can chat,
with someone
else, they're playing a game.
[00:31:40] Jeff: I don't know about your families, but for me, hike is a word that must be avoided. I CA I have to call it adventure and yeah, I put something at the end. Like I know a place where there's rocks and underneath those rocks, there's some, definitely some critters, like, let's go find the magic rock area, but we have to go up the devil's staircase to get there and then, nature 1 0 1 throw stick in body of
water, easily
done
teach stone skipping. , and it made me also made me think of what you were saying. I call those micro nature moments, because as a father of two kids, I don't have the time usually for full day hike. But I do have the time to step outside, especially when I'm feeling it all build up and say, I got 20 seconds out here where I'm not doing anything except noticing one thing.
And that's enough. I do the same thing with my wife. I'm like, let's do an eight second date. I need it right now. We lock eyes for eight seconds
[00:32:45] Noah: and
[00:32:45] Jeff: we're done and we feel that connection. And that sometimes is enough to sustain for the day. In fact, I think I need an eight second date tonight.
[00:32:55] Dave: I think you could say right now,
[00:32:57] Jeff: Would you guys like to have an eight second
[00:32:59] Dave: Yeah. Let's let's do eight
[00:33:00] Jeff: we lock eyes as a group of three?
[00:33:02] Noah: That's
[00:33:03] Dave: oh man.
One eye on. Yeah. It's not going to work.
[00:33:07] Jeff: this is not connected at all.
It's
funny though.
All right. Yeah.
[00:33:13] Dave: All right. Back.
[00:33:14] Jeff: Yeah,
[00:33:15] Dave: back
[00:33:15] Noah: put, I put on Sinatra last night and had like an eight minute dance with, with Rachel and that was, yeah, we both really needed it. And she like tried to go back to doing what she was
[00:33:29] Jeff: it's so easy to go
[00:33:30] Noah: yeah. I was like, no, no, I need Zephyr to see us dancing. And that was
[00:33:35] Jeff: beautiful statement. So your children see you having those connections.
[00:33:40] Dave: Yeah,
I think it's, it's nice to sort of think
of symptoms
like,
anxiety, depression restlessness, whatever, as
some sort of .
, connection deprivation
or, Or nature
deprivation,
, we're, we're all restless as a family. What do we need, We need to
get back out there?
Like as a society we are starving for
more connection with each other and nature, and it's it's manifesting
as, .
I have so many Symptoms,
You know,
and so I think when I'm feeling anxious, it's like, there's a, misattunement, there's a incongruity with my own authentic self. And as a society
we can see, you know, similarly we can see what's happening in the world,
of tension and stuff as a, in congruity with nature.
[00:34:39] Jeff: That's deep,
[00:34:40] Dave: Little
too deep
[00:34:42] Jeff: just right.
[00:34:45] Dave: You're going to go there with me or
[00:34:46] Noah: well, yeah, I mean, I kind of think of, nature's like a tuning fork in a way, and the same way music has this, like vibrational quality that, that pulls us into resonance with it. You know, whether it's that melancholy music that gets you to just like, , have those feelings that you get with that.
Or, you know, the up lifting boppity, boppity, like hippie hooray, like fun music. Um, and so I think like nature resonates with this. This is like musical quality that touches a chord within us. That is a chord of ease and peacefulness and a grounded-ness. And so I think that's kind of what, what goes on and that's how.
[00:35:29] Dave: I
[00:35:30] Noah: Think about what goes on with the, and for the kids it's, especially in important,
[00:35:35] Dave: Yeah. does she think our
kids are like deprived of, I I don't mean our kids
the three of us, but I mean, there's not enough time spent in nature outside. right.
even
our kids
who
we're making a point to get them outside still they're sitting inside a lot underneath fluorescent lighting. I actually think that's an issue.
[00:35:58] Jeff: And
I, I think that's kind of, part of my conversion is trying to find those creative ways to alleviate it instead of thinking about, oh, I wish I could get them out more and I'm like, no, I'm just gonna find a creative way. If I'm really feeling it, then we're going to come up with a game.
We're going to, like, we have a game at my house. I call flash flood and it doesn't work with my two year old, but, , and apologies to anyone who's been affected by a flood. But we, you know, imagine that there's floodwaters and you have to get off the ground and you have to be outdoors when you do it. So I can call flash flood and you have 10 seconds to get outside and above ankle height.
, it's just like throwing that in, in the middle of, I should do it during one of my son's cartoons and see if he actually does it.
[00:36:48] Noah: yeah, that's amazing. That
[00:36:52] Dave: how
[00:36:53] Noah: my kids are gonna love
[00:36:54] Jeff: It's really fun. Yeah. You can get them hanging off branches and then you have, you have to wait until we say all clear and sometimes I'll hang on for a long time just to give them that solo moment, like holding onto a tree. , and, and let them marinate in the nature moment.
[00:37:13] Dave: Yeah.
So you're, I mean, you're, you're
you're saying like
trickery, deceit, deceive the
children.
as what you're saying. No,
but again, you're saying like,
um,
rather
than dwelling on
the deprivation that I was dwelling on you're you're saying like,
where
can, we
find little,
opportunities? exactly,
[00:37:37] Jeff: But the deprivation is real. I appreciate you bringing it up. I'm just my response to it
[00:37:41] Dave: is
[00:37:43] Jeff: I can, I can creatively bust that
[00:37:46] Dave: Yeah.
[00:37:46] Noah: And I just, that were trickery.
Actually. I want to, that means something. Cause there's, there's this archetype, there's this quality of like the trickster and it has a wildness and a subversiveness to it that as a culture, we don't really, um, include all that, all that often. Right. We tend to, , Relegate that to something like, you know, and all the fairytales it's, the woods are dangerous and it's , we want to, we want to get this dangerous subversive kind of trickster away.
And here, , the coyote, right? This wildness is, is so important for us as humans. Right. We need to have our cultured. I know how to, , write a check side. Right. But we also need to like have the side that of us that gets to explore just to be in the wild. And, and interestingly, there's a way of using that energy.
To, to, to achieve like deposit the means that we're trying to get at. I mean, I don't know how articulate I'm being, but this idea of like, yeah, tricking our kids to go outside and play sort of highlights that we need the positive side of this thing that we tend to think of as only being negative.
Right. Cause all those shadow qualities all have gifts that they can bring us in. And so when we can bring that playful, you know, coyote, Raven, trickster energy, we can, we can inspire our kids into doing things that they wouldn't otherwise do. And, uh, and the only way to, to have that sort of creative playfulness that you're talking about is to integrate those qualities in some way.
[00:39:33] Jeff: I love it. And we got to teach him how to write a check though. You're right. How do you write a check Noah?
[00:39:42] Dave: uh, you
you go to your laptop and you type in
[00:39:44] Jeff: yes.
[00:39:46] Dave: Yeah,
Yeah. we, we have to be playful
With kids
I mean, period.
Right?
[00:39:53] Jeff: Um,
[00:39:53] Dave: to go back to Jeff's point about like, if he was standing on stage with Paige and they were doing a PowerPoint, it wouldn't quite have the
same,
magic. I mean, you could probably, you
could probably make it entertaining, but
[00:40:07] Jeff: can I put, can I play a little song snippet?
[00:40:09] Dave: Yeah.
[00:40:09] Jeff: right. Will you hold this Dave? So that that's,
um,
[00:40:14] Dave: a play there's
[00:40:15] Jeff: debating many different songs, but
you
just reminded me. I wanted to play just a little of a song. We call black widow, um, that, you know, historically that is a creature.
Like
[00:40:26] Noah: we want to stay
[00:40:26] Jeff: away from,
[00:40:27] Noah: but Paige has got, we've got this amazing homemade black widow
[00:40:30] Jeff: costs. From
[00:40:32] Noah: a fan whose
[00:40:33] Jeff: are now in high
[00:40:34] Noah: school and college and Paige just dressed as the black widow.
[00:40:38] Jeff: And
[00:40:39] Noah: she's saying, yes, I am venomous. So keep your distance from me, but essentially
[00:40:42] Jeff: a scene I'm also
[00:40:44] Noah: kind of amazing and trying to inspire that playfulness.
Um, having kids embody that animal, like there's a part where we have them spin around and pretend they're making a
web.
Um,
but also saying, yes, this is something
you should keep your distance from,
but you should also Revere it.
So I'm going to play it a little bit. black widow
[00:41:08] Dave: oh, red,
[00:41:08] Jeff: our glass black abdomen eats fly is eight eyes, eight legs on irregular cobwebs shit lay several hundred. Spanning jungle gyms have spidey sale in dark and cold or adores. She's one of Nate's just most amazing in SAC. The bars, black widow, eight Isaid legs,
hour glass phase. This guy
now let's be gay black widow use a hospital. a little widow spin with a widow, spin the lead or widow spins. Spin the other way. Spin it. A weirdo. Spin with a widow spin little widows. You're not spinning. little widow spoon with a widow spin, spin.
[00:42:15] Dave: Gentlemen,
you,
you
making a case
[00:42:18] Jeff: to come on stage with
Jeff? I
[00:42:20] Dave: Hayne? think I just heard a vocal cord Nope. Nope. Can't do
it.
[00:42:26] Jeff: Very nice.
[00:42:28] Dave: Thank you so much for that.
[00:42:31] Jeff: Oh, there's there's other things in here too. If you, if you, if you want them, we can record some more.
[00:42:38] Dave: Yeah. How did you write that side?
How did it
happen?
[00:42:42] Jeff: I think that song was
so so I will often check out books about, I will decide, I want to write a song about black widows and it's going to kind of generally be about this.
Like it's cool adaptations, stay away from it and its role within the ecosystem, which is verse three. So I actually went to the library and checked out several kids' books to see how other authors put that subject matter across to kids. And then I take notes. Um, and then I will usually try to just let it come to me while I'm taking a hike or a bike ride and slowly start weaving those notes into lyrics.
But first, first we got to get the hook. So in that case, it's eight eyes, eight legs, eight to fly. Get it. You can get, get it.
There's
[00:43:32] Dave: Yeah. a little play on
the word, ate there.
[00:43:36] Jeff: Yeah.
[00:43:38] Dave: And then what about the.
the chorus?
[00:43:41] Jeff: Um, and then we know, so then I think I played that for Paige and she was like, oh, we need to add, uh, uh, apart for the kids. So our creative process, I will write the song.
I will play it for her. And then she will, um, pick it apart and send me back to the drawing board. And then we'll figure out not only how to sing it together, but how to make it in an audience performance piece that both engages the kids, teaches them, them something, and is, you know, musically where we're sharing the load musically.
.
it's taken a while to get there. Our creative process. Like it definitely was hard to figure out how to take something that I was doing initially for a few years before my, at the time girlfriend and now wife. And now sh I would say Jeff and pages pages now the creative, , visionary of where. Our business and performances we'll go.
And I'm more the guy who's packing all the props. And so in the leg, back onto the inset costume,
[00:44:46] Dave: uh,
what a, what a production I mean, from
writing?
the music, the lyrics, making
the costumes.
[00:44:56] Noah: Yeah.
[00:44:56] Jeff: Yeah.
, and we're in the midst of recording our seventh album, which we're calling, Hey Alice, after our
daughter
[00:45:04] Dave: sweet
[00:45:04] Jeff: in the first song, there's a bunch of scientists in a field lab balcony that goes,
[00:45:10] Noah: this
[00:45:11] Jeff: And, we're still like we have two or three more songs that have to be decided , so I have, I will come to her with a list of 16 songs and play them for her and we will decide which ones make the cuts. It's a very fun process and vulnerable to play something and know that my wife and business partner is going to take it is going to change.
It is going to send me back to the drawing board for a rewrite. And then we're going to have to figure out what, how we make it from Jeff writing a song into a Jeff and page public performance piece. So it's, it's really fun and much harder as parents who have very limited time.
[00:45:51] Dave: Yeah,
yeah.
[00:45:53] Jeff: it's real.
[00:45:54] Dave: So, speaking of which
[00:45:57] Jeff: is,
[00:45:58] Dave: we wanted to ask you about fatherhood too.
Yeah. So we've
covered
We've covered nature,
We've covered music.
We've covered
black widows. um,
[00:46:10] Jeff: Check rating
[00:46:11] Dave: check writing, I think was in there.
[00:46:13] Noah: Scavengers.
[00:46:14] Dave: Yep. Well covered a lot of territory. , What's been challenging for you as a dad and
what's been real rewarding, just a couple
nuggets
as a dad.
[00:46:28] Jeff: food with children is the most challenging for me. I would say just the constant need, not only to prepare a snack, but to figure out what snack that person wants and then to make it and not, and not see it, especially with a two year old to like literally sometimes scream in your face. And I feel like sometimes like, uh, I don't know, medieval Butler of sorts.
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry about that. Um, and yeah, and seeing food not consumed and like making that choice.
[00:47:02] Dave: like,
[00:47:03] Jeff: Do I put this into my body. So I feel like it's not wasted or do I sit down and eat a healthy meal instead of standing at the stove and shoveling in two bites of Mac and cheese, it's kind of cold. ,
[00:47:15] Dave: I have eaten So,
much cold Mac and
[00:47:17] Jeff: so much right.
[00:47:19] Dave: yeah.
[00:47:20] Noah: You need chickens
[00:47:21] Jeff: what's that
[00:47:22] Noah: you need chickens,
[00:47:24] Jeff: I need chickens. Oh, to feed it to,
[00:47:25] Dave: Yeah. That's
[00:47:26] Noah: I never feel guilty. Uh
[00:47:29] Jeff: chickens,
[00:47:30] Noah: I never feel guilty because the chickens will eat the leftovers. And then I get eggs from the chickens, which are tasty
[00:47:37] Jeff: I don't want anything else to take care of
[00:47:40] Noah: I can, I can relate to that.
[00:47:44] Dave: Yeah. Um,
[00:47:44] Jeff: and then on the other side, and the answer to your question would prob like you, when your kids, as they get older and they start to reveal themselves as their, their humanness, my wife and I were having an argument the other day. And it unbeknownst to us, our son, I know he was in the other room. He was hearing it.
He was having his own feelings. He didn't talk to us about it, but he came in and he doesn't, he, I don't know about your children, but like getting him to write a thank you note or a Valentine is really challenging. He does not enjoy writing. He wrote like a note to us that just said, mom and dad, I love you to the moon one.
And then 29 zeros times. Um, and that's what he was doing while we were arguing. And I was like, I love these moments where he's revealing his empathetic humanity and I'm seeing more of that. And then just for my, so I'm not excluding my daughter. I love the smell of her head. When I kiss it, she gets like so many kisses, even when she's, you know, throwing the Mac and cheese back.
So many kisses.
[00:48:52] Dave: Yeah.
It's like, , parenting.
is hard. Children are wonderful.
[00:48:58] Jeff: ,
It's so true.
[00:48:59] Dave: Yeah.
Yeah. Well, a couple things.
that we wanted to just cover before we end. One is
we have a little gift for
Jeff for being our inaugural guest.
Jeff I was wondering how you like my hat.
Ah,
[00:49:23] Noah: oh,
[00:49:26] Dave: Jeff is the recipient
[00:49:28] Jeff: It
[00:49:28] Dave: of a
[00:49:29] Jeff: hat
[00:49:30] Dave: baseball cap.
with the logo council of fathers on it.
[00:49:34] Jeff: Wow, really nice.
[00:49:37] Dave: Thank
[00:49:38] Jeff: I put it on my head right now, but
[00:49:39] Dave: Yes. That's the best place to put it. is
on your head. Yes.
[00:49:44] Jeff: to be like, I
[00:49:47] Dave: think there
[00:49:48] Jeff: to be. More father glorification in the world.
So I'm going to wear this proudly for the rest of my Tuesday.
[00:49:58] Dave: I'll take
it. Yeah.
Thank you for being on the, on the show. and for
singing for
us. Maybe you'll you'll
sing us out.
That would be pretty cool.
Um, we also just wanted to mention, we were doing a retreat. So a few are um, a dad and you are needing to retreat from,
from life for
a
day,
and, we're gonna be doing some cool stuff together, , that you know, has to do with
finding yourself as a dad and some tools for
being, being the kind of
dad that
you want to be,
[00:50:35] Noah: and you can find all the details at our website, council, fathers.com,
[00:50:41] Dave: Yeah. uh, anything more about that?
[00:50:47] Noah: just that it's going to be awesome. And you know, only, only the cool guys are going to be there. So
[00:50:55] Dave: but are we still invited
or
[00:50:59] Noah: two nuts. So cool guys. It's the cool guy.
[00:51:02] Jeff: You guys are cool.
[00:51:04] Dave: Thanks, Jeff.
[00:51:06] Jeff: Let's hang out all day. All right,
[00:51:08] Noah: Cool.
[00:51:10] Dave: Yeah. I Canceled the rest of my,
appointments. anything else before we, have Jeff take us on out?
[00:51:19] Noah: well, Jeff, if let's say there's a parent out there and they're like, oh, I want Jeff and Paige to come play at my kid's birthday party, or I'm organizing some sort of nature day because I'm like the person who does that kind of thing. Or I am a teacher at a school and I want to invite them to my school, or I don't know any of that kind of stuff.
How would they get in touch with you?
[00:51:41] Jeff: They can find us@jeffandpage.org. Um, there are ways to listen to our music and watch videos. Um, and most importantly, I would say, especially for those folks in the front range to check out the events calendar, because this right now, um, April of 2022, we are at the start of our busy season where we have so many outdoor and free to attend public events.
Um, and it is, yeah, it's a chance to be surrounded by other parents and a bunch of other kids. And hopefully they're happy
[00:52:19] Noah: And you guys have music videos on YouTube and you're on apple music
[00:52:25] Dave: Get
[00:52:25] Jeff: yeah. Oh,
[00:52:26] Noah: also on Spotify.
[00:52:28] Jeff: All those things.
[00:52:29] Noah: Okay, cool.
[00:52:29] Jeff: Oh, those ways people listen to music. It's
I will say it's interesting because our audience is one of the few who will still buy CDs.
Um, cause there's a lot of like six disk changers in the minivans and, and just kids, like, you know, they, they want a tangible item. When for me a CD is more like, at this point it's like a business card. I don't, I don't think I have a way to listen to my own albums that I have stocked in our garage. So yeah, by one of our t-shirts instead it's evergreen, you'll always need clothes on your body.
[00:53:06] Noah: That's true. Great. So you want to play us
[00:53:09] Jeff: Yeah,
actually that I was debating between a few. Um, and this song is
from
[00:53:16] Dave: the new album,
[00:53:17] Jeff: so it's not available. Here except on the council of fathers
[00:53:23] Dave: podcasts
[00:53:23] Noah: You heard it here first,
[00:53:25] Jeff: Um,
[00:53:26] Noah: the debut.
[00:53:27] Jeff: I think, Well,
I just mentioned the minivan and I, I want to, I was thinking this one might be a decent one to play because it is an intersection of being a parent and the natural world.
So true fact, um, minivans bears in the national parks, I've learned that minivans are worth targeting because they have so much food inside. And the minivan is actually the most commonly broken into
vehicle
by black bears across all national parks. It's hands down. So I'm going to play, you can edit some of this out if you need to.
I'm going to play the intro all the way through the first chorus of the song that we're the working title is black bear in a minivan. I am a block. This is my sound, my front and my back hair are a blend of black and brown. I can see and hear and smell quiet. Well, I'm also territorial in winter time. I snooze the days away.
[00:54:36] Noah: I'm
[00:54:37] Jeff: an omnivore, which means I'll eat loads of plants, but also me up to 15,000 calories a day. So if you see me come September casing, the camp grounds,
I guarantee. I'll be snacking packing on the pounds. You get to you ready for complete and utter an activity, load, metabolic rate and muscle atrophy. I've got to eat, but now I've got this brand new plan. My needs are satisfied inside yo mini events, and then we make the kids become black bears. Yeah. Let's just give it a try.
Let's see your claws, your pinky fingers, or you're in claws or like, I have a pinky finger. You can swim, you can climb a tree and now rub your hungry bellies. It's time to feasts. Well, I don't want to eat a bunch of Fabry ever want to work that hard for dead end calories. So Asif beneath the seats and a sniff, those sticky treats left by the kids.
I find some little snack and crackers from the hands of little snags in the cracks of the upholstery. When gays in it's amazing, they were grazing on some raisins and they left a whole bunch for me, gobs and gobs of peanut butter, globs and crusted, apple sauce, little baby carrots, string, and the bits I'm going to needle a little dental floss.
Black badges to make. And my stand and back chair of your mini van, the it's the vehicle for me with the best fuel efficiency
gets hibernation prep, ration, full bears across the nation from Denali to yo Samma the, and that's it.
[00:57:08] Noah: that was awesome.
[00:57:10] Dave: it.
[00:57:10] Jeff: I realized that I was singing pages parts. I'm like, oh, that's a high
[00:57:15] Dave: for me.
[00:57:15] Jeff: the middle.
Yes.
[00:57:17] Dave: out to Paige. She's amazing
too. And thank you so much, Jeff, for being here.
[00:57:23] Noah: Thank you so
[00:57:24] Jeff: Thank you gents. For having me. I will be wearing this hat proudly.
[00:57:27] Noah: Mm.
[00:57:29] Dave: All
right. Be Well, y'all
[00:57:31] Noah: have a good one.
[00:57:32] Dave: us.